Four hundred years ago, Jean-Baptiste van Helmont planted a willow tree in a carefully weighed pot of soil to find out. His experiment produced evidence he couldn't fully explain—and helped open a trail of discovery connecting forests, fuels, and the atmosphere.

In this episode of Bionic Planet, I revisit the prehistory of the voluntary carbon market, from the ancient Greeks' four elements to Francis Bacon's assault on dogma and the experiments that helped turn alchemy into chemistry.

Along the way, we meet people who got the experiment right and the explanation wrong, discovered gases they couldn't identify, and challenged theories that had seemed to explain everything.

Their stories bring us to two recurring themes on Bionic Planet: the science behind climate change and the challenge of acting under uncertainty.

Right-wing climate science deniers exploit uncertainty to undermine trust in climate science. Left-wing opponents of carbon markets exploit it to undermine trust in climate solutions. The targets differ, but the maneuver is familiar: turn the limits of knowledge into an excuse to dismiss what we do know.

In The Carbon Paradox, my co-authors and I explore a related dilemma we call the Science Paradox: methods improve, evidence accumulates, and yesterday's best practices can become tomorrow's targets. Waiting for the perfect methodology means waiting forever—while the forests we're trying to protect disappear.

This episode explores:

• Francis Bacon's challenge to dogma, bias, and distorted public discourse.

• Van Helmont's willow experiment and the mystery of where trees get their mass.

• Joseph Black's "fixed air," now known as carbon dioxide.

• Phlogiston, Joseph Priestley, and Antoine Lavoisier's competing explanations of combustion.

• Jan Ingenhousz and the role of sunlight in photosynthesis.

• The connection between Black's work on latent heat, steam engines, and modern heat pumps.

Read further

• The Carbon Paradox, by Renat Heuberger, Steve Zwick, and Marco Hirsbrunner—a story of three young idealists confronting the practical and political contradictions of climate finance.

• Novum Organum, by Francis Bacon—free to read through Project Gutenberg.

• The Life and Letters of Joseph Black, M.D., by William Ramsay.

• Lavoisier in the Year One, by Madison Smartt Bell.

Help support independent reporting on climate and biodiversity finance: become a Bionic Planet patron.

For sponsorship inquiries, contact steve@bionic-planet.com.

Climate change has fallen off the public radar just as the need for workable solutions has become more urgent. I've long argued that the great tragedy of climate and biodiversity finance is that those who understand it most have their noses to the grindstone, while those who understand it least have their mouths to the megaphone.

That's one reason I'm bringing back Episode 35, which originally aired on October 31, 2018. It became one of the most popular episodes of Bionic Planet, and listening to it now, I'm struck by how directly it speaks to the mess we're in today.

The guest is Reverend Dr. Gerald L. Durley, a veteran of the U.S. civil rights movement who marched with Martin Luther King Jr. and later became a psychologist, minister, and environmental advocate. I first encountered him at the 2018 Global Climate Action Summit, where he did something few speakers manage to do in a room full of climate-policy wonks: he electrified it.

Durley argues that the civil rights movement succeeded not because the facts were sufficient, but because people learned how to organize around them. They took risks. They made sacrifices. They connected moral conviction with strategy and turned outrage into action.

That lesson feels especially relevant now.

Those of us working on viable climate solutions knew that many of the mechanisms being built were imperfect, but we also knew they were improving and generating results. Too often, we kept our heads down and continued doing the work while purists, propagandists, and opportunists took over the public conversation. Once the public lost faith in viable solutions, they shut down on the problem as well.

That failure to defend workable solutions — and the consequences of ceding the megaphone — is a central theme of The Carbon Paradox, and it will be a recurring theme of this season of Bionic Planet.

In this conversation, Durley talks about what climate advocates can learn from the civil rights movement: how to communicate beyond statistics, why fear alone doesn't mobilize people, how faith communities can contribute, and why movements ultimately need more than good arguments.

They need strategy. They need sacrifice.

And they need energy.

00:00:00 - Introduction to Season 12 and Climate Challenges 00:01:39 - The Carbon Paradox and the Need for Strategy 00:02:34 - Disconnection Between Activists and Experts 00:03:44 - Reverend Dr. Gerald L. Durley's Electrifying Speech 00:04:58 - The Interconnection of Civil Rights and Climate Change 00:06:17 - The Moral Dimension of the Climate Crisis 00:08:00 - The Anthropocene and Our Responsibility 00:09:15 - Engaging Emotionally in Climate Solutions 00:10:25 - The Need for Enthusiasm in the Movement 00:12:33 - Sacrifice and Commitment in Activism 00:13:57 - Lessons from the Civil Rights Movement 00:16:15 - The Power of Belief and Thought 00:18:55 - Inspiring Change in Disenfranchised Communities 00:20:27 - Connecting Climate Issues to Everyday Lives 00:22:51 - The Role of Faith-Based Communities 00:25:58 - Addressing the Influence of Powerful Interests 00:28:35 - The Importance of Personal Accountability 00:30:02 - The Role of Organizations in Driving Change 00:32:51 - World Pilgrims and Interfaith Collaboration 00:35:35 - The Importance of Hope in the Climate Movement 00:39:40 - Reflections on Personal Experiences and Activism

When Greene began building carbon projects in the Brazilian Amazon, he didn't expect to end up battling organized crime, corrupt officials, and a $220 million land grab. But that's exactly where the trail has led.

You'll hear how a businessman who thought he was protecting forests found himself targeted by powerful interests — his properties invaded using forged documents, his bank accounts frozen, and his reputation attacked by the very institutions meant to enforce the law.

Along the way, Greene describes the human cost of the fight — from schools he built that became flashpoints for local politics to community programs twisted by rumor and manipulation.

This is a story about how conservation collides with corruption — and how one man's attempt to save forests spiraled into a struggle for survival in one of the most dangerous frontiers on earth.

Our guest today is Dr. Steve Crooks, a leading expert in coastal ecosystems and blue carbon. He shares insights into the critical role that mangroves, salt marshes, and seagrasses play in mitigating climate change by sequestering carbon and acting as natural buffers against rising sea levels. We explore the unique characteristics of mangrove forests, which can sequester up to four times more carbon per hectare than traditional forests, and discuss the importance of preserving these ecosystems to combat climate change.

Dr. Crooks also provides an overview of the blue carbon system, a term that has gained traction over the past decade. He explains how coastal ecosystems have historically been overlooked in climate discussions, with a predominant focus on terrestrial forests. However, recent developments, including the recognition of blue carbon in international climate agreements like the Paris Agreement, have opened new avenues for conservation and management.

Throughout our conversation, we touch on various projects aimed at restoring and managing coastal ecosystems, including the Indus Delta Red Plus mangrove project in Pakistan, which aims to restore 350,000 hectares of degraded mangrove forest. Dr. Crooks emphasizes the importance of using verified methodologies to ensure the success of such initiatives, contrasting them with less rigorous tree-planting efforts that may not yield lasting benefits.

As we navigate through the complexities of blue carbon, we also discuss the challenges and opportunities presented by marine protected areas and the potential for mariculture to contribute to carbon sequestration. Dr. Crooks highlights the need for integrated management strategies that consider both adaptation and mitigation in the face of climate change.

In the second half of the episode, we take a virtual flyover of the Indus Delta project, where Dr. Crooks shares insights from his experiences and observations. We discuss the delicate balance between local livelihoods and environmental conservation, as well as the importance of community involvement in these initiatives.

This episode serves as a call to action, urging listeners to recognize the significance of coastal ecosystems in the fight against climate change and to support efforts aimed at their preservation and restoration. Join us as we explore the interconnectedness of our planet's ecosystems and the vital role they play in creating a sustainable future.

00:00:00 - Indonesia's Capital Relocation and Climate Change 00:01:17 - Vulnerability of Coastal Cities 00:02:55 - Importance of Coastal Ecosystems 00:04:10 - The Anthropocene and Climate Change 00:05:38 - Introduction to Dr. Steve Crooks 00:06:52 - The Indus Delta Red Plus Project 00:08:27 - Overview of Blue Carbon 00:09:49 - Support for the Podcast 00:10:02 - Revisiting the Meeting with Steve Crooks 00:12:20 - The Katoomba Meeting and Blue Carbon 00:14:13 - Challenges in the Red River Delta 00:16:09 - Comparing Red River and Indus Delta Projects 00:17:40 - Focus on Oceans at COP25 00:20:28 - Emerging Concepts in Blue Carbon 00:22:08 - Mangrove Carbon Storage Dynamics 00:24:38 - Differentiating Coastal Ecosystems 00:30:10 - Impact of Thawing Peatlands 00:32:08 - Carbon Storage in Coastal Ecosystems 00:35:17 - Lateral Movement of Carbon 00:40:23 - Interventions in Coastal Ecosystems 00:43:56 - NDCs and Blue Carbon Integration 00:50:45 - Virtual Flyover of the Indus Red Plus Project

1. "Indonesia is literally moving its capital out of Jakarta." - 00:00:11

2. "Mangroves are coastal woods, like those in Florida's Everglades, Kenya's Ghazi Bay, and all along the coasts of Indonesia." - 00:02:02

3. "Saving mangroves is key to reversing climate change." - 00:03:37

4. "Earth. We broke it, we own it. And nothing is as it was." - 00:04:47

5. "The emissions part of the curve is much steeper than what it is the gradual sequestration under a natural system." - 00:28:10

6. "Mangroves account for something like 0.7% of all forests, but at 1.10% of all emissions associated with deforestation came from mangroves." - 00:29:45

7. "Coastal ecosystems are a continuum, and it's a mosaic of habitat that goes down from the terrestrial." - 00:30:10

8. "If we don't deal with keeping things, temperatures under control, we're just going to have this massive outflow of both methane as the soils warm." - 00:33:05

9. "The first thing we can do is manage them more holistically." - 00:41:58

10. "The important thing is to continue to make progress." - 00:50:35

Today's guest, Blue Carbon Pioneer James Kairo, brings us into the fascinating world of mangroves and their immense economic and ecological value. Our journey begins with a brief overview of mangroves, which, despite covering only 0.01% of the sea surface and just 1% of Kenya's land area, play a crucial role in carbon sequestration and coastal protection.

I had the privilege of recording this episode on location at the world's first blue carbon project, Makoko Pomoja in Gazi Bay, Kenya. This project not only aims to restore degraded coastal areas but also emphasizes the importance of education and community engagement in conservation efforts.

Throughout our conversation, Dr. Kairo highlights the multifaceted benefits of mangroves, including their role in shoreline protection, habitat provision for marine life, and their capacity to capture and store carbon dioxide. He explains how mangroves can sequester carbon at rates significantly higher than terrestrial forests due to their unique growing conditions in anoxic environments.

We also discuss the challenges faced by mangrove ecosystems, particularly the pressures of climate change, over-exploitation for wood, and the impacts of shrimp aquaculture. Dr. Kairo emphasizes the need for innovative solutions that allow communities to benefit from mangroves without degrading them. This includes alternative livelihoods such as ecotourism and sustainable fishing practices.

As we explore the concept of blue carbon, we touch on the importance of scientific research and data collection in demonstrating the value of mangroves. Dr. Kairo shares insights into the methodologies used to measure carbon sequestration and the significance of community involvement in carbon trading initiatives.

In addition to Dr. Kairo, we are joined by Basco Juma, a Kenyan social entrepreneur and founder of the NGO Big Ship, who shares his experiences in promoting sustainable practices and community engagement in mangrove conservation. Together, they illustrate the collaborative efforts required to protect these vital ecosystems and the potential for scaling similar projects in other regions.

As we wrap up the episode, we reflect on the broader implications of blue carbon initiatives for climate change mitigation and the importance of integrating local knowledge and community needs into conservation strategies. This episode serves as a powerful reminder of the critical role that mangroves play in our environment and the urgent need to protect them for future generations.

Join us as we embark on this enlightening exploration of mangroves, blue carbon, and the innovative solutions being implemented to safeguard our planet's coastal ecosystems.

We introduce Mustafa Mohamed Libin, a community member from Biliqo Bulesa, who shares the story of how his community took bold steps in 2007 to form a conservancy that is truly community-run, contrasting it with the historical context of land ownership in the region. The episode highlights the positive impacts of the conservancy, including the revival of traditional grazing practices and the introduction of carbon finance to support community initiatives.

However, the narrative takes a darker turn as we discuss the backlash faced by the conservancies, particularly following a report from the Oakland Institute that accused the Northern Rangelands Trust (NRT) of various human rights abuses. We explore the subsequent media frenzy that ensued, often lacking proper fact-checking and failing to consult actual community leaders. The episode serves as a follow-up to episode 117, providing deeper insights into the crisis faced by the community and the urgent need for their voices to be heard.

Throughout the episode, we hear directly from community members, including youth representatives and conservancy leaders, who express their concerns about the recent court ruling that deemed the conservancies illegal due to alleged lack of consent. They recount their shock at the judgment, which they claim was made without their knowledge or participation, and discuss the significant benefits the conservancies have brought to their lives, including access to education, healthcare, and economic opportunities.

The community members passionately defend the conservancies, asserting that the allegations made against them are unfounded and that the real beneficiaries of the conservancy are the local people. They highlight the transformative impact of the conservancy on women's empowerment, youth engagement, and community development, emphasizing that the conservancy is a lifeline for their livelihoods.

As the episode progresses, we address the misconceptions propagated by external organizations and the media, which often portray the conservancies in a negative light. The community members clarify the differences between community-run conservancies and private conservancies, asserting their ownership and the positive changes that have occurred since the establishment of their conservancy.

In closing, the episode underscores the importance of community voices in the narrative surrounding conservation efforts. The community members call for transparency and engagement from external organizations, urging them to visit and understand the realities on the ground rather than relying on hearsay. This episode is a powerful testament to the resilience of the Biliko Bulesa and Cherub communities and their unwavering commitment to protecting their rights and livelihoods amidst external challenges.

If you find this kind of truth-telling important, consider supporting our work at patreon.com/bionicplanet. Your support helps us continue to share these vital stories.

🎧 Episode highlights:

• False claims by Survival International and Deutsche Welle (DW) debunked

• The real story behind grazing plans, fencing, and carbon revenue sharing

• The complexity of land management among Samburu, Maasai, and other communities

• Firsthand accounts from the family wrongly featured in the DW documentary

• How communities are using carbon finance to fund peace, health, and education

💡 What you'll learn:

• How community-led soil carbon projects work in practice

• What "planned grazing" really means—and how it strengthens, not replaces, traditional practices

• Why claims of land grabs, fences, and armed rangers are largely fictional or misunderstood

• The importance of verifying information and speaking directly with affected communities

🌍 This is the first of a two-part deep dive into one of Africa's most scrutinized carbon projects—and it might change how you think about conservation, climate finance, and indigenous rights.

🔗 Support Bionic Planet: patreon.com/bionicplanet 🎙️ Listen now on Apple, Spotify, or your favorite podcatcher.

We begin by discussing Africa's booming population and rich natural resources, which James argues position the continent as a powerhouse for innovation and leadership in the climate fight. Contrary to the narrative that views Africa as a victim of climate change, James emphasizes the continent's potential to lead, particularly through initiatives like the Great Carbon Valley, which aims to make Kenya a hub for carbon removals, including advanced technologies like direct air capture.

Throughout our conversation, we explore several paradoxes that complicate the implementation of carbon markets. James introduces his own concepts, such as the "power illusion," which challenges the belief that blocking carbon removals will compel fossil fuel companies to reduce emissions. He also discusses the "mastery illusion," which suggests that expertise in climate solutions lies solely in the Global North, ignoring the talent and knowledge present in Africa.

We delve into the work of the Climate Action Platform Africa (CAPE) and Africa Climate Ventures (ACV), two organizations James has founded to drive climate-positive growth in the region. CAPE focuses on identifying and realizing opportunities for sustainable development, while ACV invests in companies that address the climate crisis, showcasing innovative projects like biochar production and the Great Carbon Valley initiative.

James shares the story of Safi Organics, a company utilizing rice husks to create biochar, which not only serves as a sustainable fertilizer but also contributes to carbon removal. We discuss the importance of transitional finance and the concept of additionality, emphasizing that carbon finance can catalyze projects that are already delivering value to communities.

As we shift our focus to the Great Carbon Valley, James outlines Kenya's unique advantages, including its abundant renewable energy resources and geothermal potential. He argues that direct air capture can thrive in Kenya, leveraging the country's surplus energy to support industries that require significant power, ultimately benefiting local economies.

We also touch on the recent developments in Kenya's carbon market regulations, which aim to create a competitive environment for carbon finance while prioritizing local benefits. James highlights the importance of building a market that is not only designed for Africa but also driven by local talent and innovation.

In closing, we reflect on the need to reverse the brain drain and create opportunities for Africa's best and brightest to thrive at home. This episode is a powerful reminder of the potential for African leadership in the climate space and the importance of fostering local solutions to global challenges. Join us as we explore these critical issues and envision a sustainable future where Africa plays a central role.

00:00:00 - Introduction to Africa's Potential in Climate Solutions 00:01:00 - James Mwangi's Background and Career 00:07:00 - Climate Action Platform Africa (CAPE) 00:09:30 - Africa Climate Ventures (ACV) 00:11:30 - The Role of Biochar in Carbon Removal 00:20:00 - The Importance of Additionality in Carbon Finance 00:27:00 - Safi Organics and Biochar Production 00:30:00 - Great Carbon Valley: Kenya's Direct Air Capture Initiative 00:36:00 - Kenya's Geothermal Energy Potential 00:40:00 - Kenya's New Carbon Market Regulations 00:45:00 - The Future of African Talent and Climate Solutions

I connected with Tim Male last week.

Tim, who founded the Environmental Policy Innovation Center in 2017, has a wealth of experience in environmental policy, having worked in various capacities, including at the White House and with organizations like Defenders of Wildlife. Both Tim and I share a commitment to addressing climate challenges, despite our differing perspectives on party policies.

In our discussion, we unpack Tim's recent LinkedIn post, where he meticulously breaks down the ten executive actions that target environmental regulations. We explore the unprecedented number of executive orders issued in such a short time frame and the potential consequences of these actions. Tim emphasizes that while executive orders can set priorities for federal agencies, they must still align with existing laws, which can lead to legal challenges.

We delve into specific orders, starting with the requirement for the "God squad" under the Endangered Species Act to meet more frequently and expedite reviews of projects that could impact endangered species. Tim explains the historical context of this committee and its potential to prioritize development over environmental protections.

Next, we discuss directives to the Army Corps of Engineers to expedite permitting processes under the Clean Water Act and the Endangered Species Act, raising concerns about the implications for environmental safeguards. Tim provides insights into the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) and its role in ensuring that federal actions minimize environmental harm.

We also examine the revocation of President Carter's executive order aimed at making environmental impact statements more accessible to the public, which Tim argues could lead to confusion and inconsistency across federal agencies. The episode continues with a discussion on the rescinding of protections for ancient forests and the withdrawal from international efforts to combat deforestation.

Tim highlights the significance of ecosystem service valuation and the potential loss of guidance that could have helped quantify the benefits of environmental services. We touch on the broader implications of these actions, including the potential for increased energy production at the expense of environmental protections.

As we wrap up, we reflect on the long-term consequences of these executive orders and the potential for legal challenges. Tim expresses concern about the sweeping nature of these actions and the message they send to communities affected by energy projects.

This episode serves as a critical examination of the intersection between politics and environmental policy, providing listeners with a deeper understanding of the current landscape and the challenges ahead in the fight against climate change.

00:00:00 - Introduction to Season 10 and Episode Overview 00:02:09 - Trump's Executive Orders on Environmental Policies 00:03:29 - The Role of Executive Orders in U.S. Government 00:04:01 - Critique of Trump's Environmental Actions 00:05:01 - Legal Challenges to Executive Orders 00:06:19 - Endangered Species Act and the God Squad 00:10:11 - Clean Water Act and Emergency Procedures 00:13:42 - Understanding NEPA (National Environmental Policy Act) 00:16:03 - Revocation of Carter's NEPA Executive Order 00:19:12 - Rescinding Protections for Ancient Forests 00:21:49 - International Cooperation on Deforestation 00:23:09 - Ecosystem Service Valuation Guidance Rescinded 00:28:05 - Nature-Based Solutions and Their Importance 00:29:59 - Action Plans for Energy Production Regulations 00:32:19 - Suspension of Policies Related to Energy in Alaska 00:34:27 - Impact of Schedule F on Federal Employment 00:38:11 - DOJ Teams and Federal Workforce Changes 00:41:00 - The Role of Professionals in Government 00:44:25 - Conclusion and Future Implications

1. "On his very first day in office, President Donald Trump signed 78 executive actions, and 10 of them targeted environmental policies." - 00:02:09

2. "It's pretty hard to find the wheat among the chaff in this set of actions from the environment." - 00:04:01

3. "What this order is foreshadowing is a bunch of people who are much more likely to prioritize a development project are going to get the final say on conflicts involving endangered species." - 00:09:33

4. "This is really just we're not going to do it." - 00:04:33

5. "The law is pretty limited in terms of who can, you know, ask for an appeal of the decision." - 00:10:21

6. "This is a part of that same executive order from President Biden that is being rescinded." - 00:20:25

7. "It's a broad and messy brush that they're painting across the forest landscape in a way that is pretty harmful." - 00:21:18

8. "This is a White House that's showing great interest in expanding the power of the White House." - 00:18:00

9. "There's people across the federal government who are very creative at saying, well, you've told me to do it this way, and that's not legal." - 00:42:19

10. "At the end of the day, I don't know what your philosophy is on how democracy is supposed to work, but, you know, at some level, the winner is supposed to get to decide what happens next." - 00:36:38

• Bionic Planet

• Season 10

• Episode 115

• Donald Trump

• Tim Mayle

• Environmental Policy Innovation Center

• White House

• Defenders of Wildlife

• Nairobi

• LinkedIn

• Endangered Species Act

• Alaska

• Clean Water Act

• National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA)

• Council on Environmental Quality (CEQ)

• Obama administration

• Biden administration

• Anthropocene

• Steve Zwick

• snail darter

• whooping cranes

• Trans-Alaskan pipeline

• liquefied natural gas (LNG)

• Tongass National Forest

• U.S. Digital Service

• Virginia

• Youngkin

• ecosystem services

• climate emergency

• energy dominance

• fossil fuels

• Native Alaskans

• Paris Accord

• Washington, D.C.

• environmental impact statements

• mitigation banking

• biodiversity

• carbon sequestration

• emergency procedures

• federal workforce

• Schedule F

• Department of Justice (DOJ)

Michael Greene's journey began in 2009 when he entered the tangled legal landscape of land ownership in the Amazon. His work is set against a backdrop of illegal logging, land grabbing, and the struggles of local settlers. The episode explores the threats to the Amazon, particularly in the Portel region, where illegal loggers and wealthy individuals exploit the land, often using deceptive tactics to claim vast areas.

Throughout our conversation, we discuss the various actors involved in this crisis, including the legal landowners, illegal loggers, and settlers who are often caught in the middle. Michael shares insights into the "hair comb" pattern of deforestation, where roads are cut into the forest, leading to a gradual encroachment of settlers and illegal loggers alike.

As we unpack Michael's project, we examine the strategies he implemented to combat deforestation and support local communities. He highlights the importance of the Cadastro Ambiental Rural (CAR), a mandatory environmental registry that helps families claim their land and protect it from illegal encroachment. Michael's initiative aimed to empower local families by helping them navigate this bureaucratic process, ultimately securing their land rights.

However, the episode also addresses the backlash Michael faced from local NGOs and other organizations that accused him of being a land grabber himself. We discuss the complexities of these accusations and the challenges of working in a region where the status quo is heavily influenced by illegal logging and land grabbing.

Throughout our two-hour conversation, I aim to provide a balanced view of Michael's work, acknowledging his quirks and the difficulties he has encountered while also emphasizing the positive impact he has had on local communities. This episode serves as a raw and unfiltered look at the challenges of conservation in the Amazon, offering listeners a glimpse into the intricate dynamics at play in the fight against deforestation.

Join me as we explore the unfolding saga of Michael Green, a figure who embodies the complexities of conservation efforts in one of the world's most vital ecosystems.

00:00:00 - Introduction to Michael Green and the Controversy 00:05:30 - The Project in Portel: Initial Threats and Land Ownership 00:10:00 - Illegal Logging and Settler Dynamics 00:15:00 - The Hair Comb Pattern of Deforestation 00:20:00 - Countering Land Grabbing: The CAR Initiative 00:25:00 - Building Schools and Community Engagement 00:30:00 - Legal Challenges and Land Ownership Issues 00:35:00 - Pushback from NGOs and the Status Quo 00:40:00 - Historical Context: Jonas Morioka's Land Purchase 00:45:00 - Michael's Entry into Conservation and REDD+ 00:50:00 - The Role of COIAB and Initial Meetings 00:55:00 - Investment Groups and Project Development 01:00:00 - Controversies Surrounding Other Carbon Projects

1. "I believe, based on the evidence to date, that he's been unjustly pilloried." - 00:00:43

2. "It's an unvarnished and unstructured look at the challenges of ending deforestation." - 00:03:13

3. "The threats to the area primarily in this period of time before the project started was illegal logging." - 00:04:44

4. "What happened as this hair comb deforestation that takes place in the Amazon, it was starting to reach the borders of the property." - 00:06:16

5. "We realized that the threat was really more of an organized crime threat, where they're organized land grabbing taking place." - 00:07:09

6. "Their cycles, typically, each family might do seven hectares and they plant one hectare one year and then they abandon it." - 00:15:54

7. "My big fear was that the settlers or the traditional people were going to be approached by illegal loggers as well as land invaders." - 00:17:22

8. "We wanted to track that and put eyes on it basically." - 00:23:02

9. "If it's not my carbon credit project, it's nobody's carbon credit project." - 00:43:12

10. "I think a lot of those news stories were pushed by his partners who wanted Jonas out of the area." - 00:41:37

In it, Professor David Hill, CBE, speaks with George Kelly, the Chief Executive of Earth Recovery Partners in the U.S. George has been a pivotal figure in the realm of mitigation banking and ecological restoration. Their conversation delves into his extensive career, starting from his early days as an environmental law practitioner to his current role supporting emerging enterprises in the environmental market.

George shared insights into his journey, beginning with his master's degree in environmental law and his work at a law firm focused on environmental issues, including the Superfund law. He highlighted the importance of viewing the environment as an asset rather than a cost center.

They discussed the evolution of mitigation banking in the U.S., including the challenges posed by in-lieu fees and the need for a level playing field in mitigation practices. George explained the significance of the 2008 Federal Mitigation Rule, which established rigorous standards for mitigation banking and emphasized the importance of long-term stewardship and accountability in ecological restoration projects.

Throughout their conversation, George emphasized the role of private finance in ecological restoration, discussing various funding models such as green bonds and public-private partnerships. He highlighted the potential for these models to drive effective environmental solutions while ensuring that public funds are used efficiently.

As they explored the future of environmental markets, George expressed optimism about the growth of offset markets and the increasing recognition of the inherent value of nature. He pointed to the importance of corporate responsibility and the need for businesses to embrace sustainable practices as a means of driving positive change.

In closing, George shared his admiration for historical figures in the conservation movement, such as Teddy Roosevelt and John Muir, while also acknowledging the contributions of contemporary thinkers like E.O. Wilson. He underscored the necessity of valuing nature and recognizing its role in our economy, urging listeners to consider the long-term implications of environmental degradation.

This episode was not only enlightening but also a call to action for all of us to engage in the vital work of protecting our planet. I hope you find David's questions and George's insights as inspiring as I did, and I encourage you to reflect on how we can all contribute to a more sustainable future.

The episode begins with a clear and relatively simple explanation of dynamic baselines, which have emerged as a valuable tool in climate finance. Unlike traditional static baselines, which rely on fixed reference points, dynamic baselines adapt to changing conditions and provide a more accurate measure of impact. We discuss the importance of data and the need for robust methodologies to ensure that we can effectively attribute changes in deforestation and other environmental metrics to specific interventions.

Our guests for this episode are Lynn Riley from the American Forest Foundation and David Schoch from TerraCarbon, both of whom have played pivotal roles in advancing the application of synthetic controls in carbon markets. They share insights from their work on the Family Forest Carbon Program, which aims to engage small family landowners in sustainable forest management practices. Through their collaboration, they have developed methodologies that not only improve the accuracy of carbon accounting but also empower landowners to adapt their practices based on real-time feedback.

Throughout the episode, we examine the challenges of establishing effective baselines in diverse contexts, particularly in the United States. We highlight the significance of the Forest Inventory and Analysis (FIA) data, which provides a rich source of information for modeling deforestation risk and assessing the impact of various interventions. The conversation also touches on the importance of addressing confounding variables and ensuring that methodologies are applicable across different forest types and ownership structures.

As we wrap up, we reflect on the broader implications of dynamic baselines for climate finance and the potential for these innovative approaches to drive meaningful change in forest management. By fostering a more responsive and data-driven framework, we can better understand the impacts of our actions and work towards a more sustainable future.

Join us for this engaging episode as we bridge the worlds of sports and environmental science, uncovering the lessons that can be learned from both fields in our quest to navigate the Anthropocene.

00:00:00 - Introduction to Bionic Planet and Episode Overview 00:01:03 - Justin Fields and the NFL Draft Dynamics 00:02:14 - Caleb Williams vs. Justin Fields: A Season Comparison 00:04:27 - Troy Aikman on Rookie Quarterback Struggles 00:05:53 - Sam Darnold's Journey Through the NFL 00:06:58 - Kurt Warner's Unlikely Rise to Success 00:07:48 - Connecting Sports Performance to Climate Impact Assessment 00:08:31 - Challenges in Measuring Success in Climate Finance 00:09:12 - Dynamic Baselines vs. Traditional Baselines 00:10:32 - Introduction of Guests: Lynn Riley and David Schoch 00:11:18 - Overview of the Family Forest Carbon Program 00:11:59 - The Green Municipalities Program in Brazil 00:12:53 - Evaluating the Impact of the Green Municipalities Program 00:13:58 - Synthetic Control Method Explained 00:15:30 - Causal Inference and Its Importance 00:16:52 - Fantasy Football as an Analogy for Synthetic Controls 00:19:00 - Comparison of Real and Synthetic Outcomes 00:20:58 - The Role of Data in Impact Assessment 00:21:31 - Discussion on the Synthetic Control Method Paper 00:22:30 - David Schoch's Contributions to the Research 00:25:05 - Weighting in Synthetic Control Methodology 00:26:32 - Eliminating Uncertainty in Climate Finance 00:28:13 - Linking Methodologies to Improved Forest Management 00:30:59 - Data Sufficiency and Methodology Applicability 00:31:39 - Engaging Small Landowners in Carbon Markets 00:33:43 - The Role of the U.S. Forest Service Data 00:35:41 - Public Consultation and Methodology Development 00:36:09 - Interventions for Improved Forest Management 00:38:36 - Risk Sharing in Carbon Credit Projects 00:40:56 - The Importance of Monitoring and Feedback 00:42:05 - Evolution of the Family Forest Carbon Program 00:50:07 - Challenges in Data Collection and Stakeholder Engagement

1. "Bionic Planet is the longest-running program in any medium devoted to navigating the Anthropocene, the new epoch defined by man's impact on Earth." - 00:00:10

2. "Football fans, like all sports fans, love arguing about who is better and who's just lucky." - 00:01:25

3. "Different people, different circumstances. And how do you tell who's better?" - 00:06:04

4. "We can restore it. Make it better, greener, more resilient, more sustainable. But how?" - 00:08:09

5. "Dynamic baselines adapt to shifting conditions and update more frequently." - 00:09:34

6. "The fundamental concept of synthetic controls is something we all use every day." - 00:16:52

7. "To see if an intervention works, you can synthetically model a control unit or an imaginary city where the variables are similar." - 00:16:09

8. "The ultimate goal in both cases is comparison." - 00:19:00

9. "It's not that the introduction of these methods eliminates uncertainty, but it did eliminate an important source of uncertainty and confounding." - 00:26:42

10. "There's always going to be a gap between a scenario that you model and what happens in real life, because no models are perfect." - 00:46:45

Recent updates from the Science-Based Targets initiative (SBTi) have pushed an old debate into public awareness, highlighting a perceived divide between emissions reductions and carbon removals. While SBTi's new guidelines focus on cutting emissions directly within company operations, some argue this creates a false dichotomy, downplaying the essential role of carbon removals in achieving net-zero goals. In reality, both strategies—reductions and removals—are not opposing forces but complementary tools needed to combat climate change effectively.

In Episode 69 of Bionic Planet, I spoke with Eli Mitchell-Larsen, a self-described "carbon removal evangelist," who provides valuable insights into the various types of carbon removal methods, including nature-based, hybrid, and engineered solutions. I'm rerunning this episode here today as episode 111.

The discussion begins with a focus on the importance of both reducing emissions now and removing existing gases from the atmosphere to achieve net zero emissions by 2050. The host and guest emphasize the need for a comprehensive approach that includes a mix of nature-based solutions, such as afforestation and soil carbon sequestration, as well as engineered technologies like direct air capture.

Throughout the episode, the host and guest explore the different categories of carbon removal, including biomass carbon removal and storage, geological storage, and unconventional methods like kelp farming. They highlight the importance of understanding the capture, utilization, and storage of carbon in evaluating the effectiveness and durability of each method.

The conversation also touches on the evolving landscape of carbon removal technologies, with a focus on the need for continued research and development, government support, and deployment incentives to scale up promising solutions. The host and guest stress the urgency of accelerating the deployment of carbon removal strategies to address the escalating climate crisis.

Overall, the episode provides a comprehensive overview of the complexities and challenges of carbon removal and reduction efforts, emphasizing the need for a multifaceted approach to combatting climate change effectively. Through engaging dialogue and expert insights, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the critical role of nature-based and engineered solutions in achieving a sustainable future.

• Introduction to Nature-Based Climate Solutions

• Discussion on the Importance of Carbon Removal

• Different Types of Carbon Removal

• Nature-Based Solutions and Soil Carbon Sequestration

• Carbon Capture and Storage Technologies

• Accelerating Deployment of Carbon Removal Technologies

• Cost Considerations and Government Support for Research and Development

• "The great tragedy of climate and biodiversity finance is that those who understand it most have their noses to the grindstone, while those who understand it least have their mouths to the megaphone." - 00:00:53-00:01:03

• "The only thing we can all really agree on at this point is that to meet the climate challenge, we must eliminate those emissions that we can eliminate and then find ways to suck the rest out of the atmosphere, getting to net zero emissions by 2050 at the latest." - 00:02:52-00:03:03

• "The fact that these tiny oscillations in the obliquity or the eccentricity of the Earth's orbit can kick into motion and then be magnified by the biological system and swing the climate into different states. It's just so fascinating. It's so powerful." - 00:10:48-00:10:58

• "Earth. We broke it. We own it. And nothing is as it was. Not the trees. Not the seas. Not the forests, farms, or fields. And not the global economy that depends on all of these." - 00:06:07-00:06:18

• "We know that the enemy is carbon and we know its ugly face. We should put a big fat price on it. And of course, add to that, drop the subsidies." - 00:05:56-00:06:07

• "There's a group of us now who are proposing that the Earth has actually entered a new epoch, and that is the Anthropocene." - 00:05:56-00:06:07

• "We can restore it. Make it better. Greener. More resilient. More sustainable. But how? Technology? Geoengineering? Are we doomed to live on a bionic planet? Or is nature herself the answer?" - 00:06:18-00:06:29

• "The enemy is climate change and the we is the climate community. Those of us who've been in the trenches fighting this beast for decades in some cases." - 00:01:47-00:01:57

• "I think carbon removal and storage, removing carbon and then storing it safely somewhere, it serves a couple purposes." - 00:12:51-00:13:01

• "The more you do something, the more you build, the more the costs go down. And we've seen this happen with solar and wind." - 00:44:34-00:44:44

https://www.patreon.com/bionicplanet

Guests:

Jim Pittman (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamespittman/)

Matt Orsagh (https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-orsagh-a1b8417/)

Steve Rocco (https://www.linkedin.com/in/steverocco/)

Books Referenced:

Ecological Economics (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/77985.Ecological_Economics?ac=1&from_search=true&qid=ZDNVmbxl5B&rank=1)

The Limits to Growth (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/705418.Limits_to_Growth?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=1uh5jgBt1O&rank=1)

The Web of Life (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/26155239-web-of-life)

Energy and Civilization (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/31850765-energy-and-civilization?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=pCNkYwiE3S&rank=1)

Sustainability is for Everyone (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/19107270-sustainability-is-for-everyone?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=sX3sH8kdj5&rank=1)

Less is More (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/53328332-less-is-more?ref=nav_sb_ss_1_12)

Donut Economics (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/57410899-donut-economics?ref=nav_sb_ss_1_15)

Technical Revolutions in Financial Capital (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/60509.Technological_Revolutions_and_Financial_Capital?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=TcwHjED9BR&rank=1)

The End of Nature (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/199359.The_End_of_Nature?ref=nav_sb_ss_1_17)

In Season 9, Episode 110 of Bionic Planet, titled "Ecological Economics, Systems Thinking, and the Limits to Growth," we delve into a thought-provoking discussion with ecological economists Jim Pittman, Matt Orsagh, and Steve Rocco. The episode explores the fundamental concepts of ecological economics, systems thinking, and the difference between overshoot and tipping points.

The conversation begins with a reflection on the limitations of using GDP as a measure of a nation's health, as highlighted by economist Simon Kuznets, the inventor of GDP. The guests emphasize the importance of rethinking economic health and well-being, shifting from a focus on GDP growth to a more holistic approach that includes human and planetary health.

The discussion then delves into the historical context of the environmental movement, referencing influential books like "The End of Nature" by Bill McKibben and "The Limits to Growth" published in 1972. The guests highlight the interconnectedness of human activities, climate change, biodiversity loss, and the urgent need to address these issues before reaching irreversible tipping points.

The conversation also touches on the concept of degrowth, which proposes an equitable downscaling of production and consumption to enhance human well-being and ecological conditions. The guests emphasize the importance of transitioning from individual self-interest to collective optimization, drawing parallels with the behavior of slime molds in response to scarcity.

The episode concludes with a call to action for reevaluating our current economic paradigm, shifting towards a more sustainable and equitable model that prioritizes health and well-being over GDP growth. The guests stress the urgency of addressing planetary boundaries, overshoot, and the impending tipping points that threaten the stability of our ecosystems.

Overall, the episode provides a thought-provoking exploration of ecological economics, systems thinking, and the imperative need for transformative change to ensure a sustainable future for humanity and the planet.

• Introduction to Ecological Economics and Systems Thinking

• Discussion on the Influence of Popular Books on Climate Change Awareness

• Evolution of Climate Change Discourse and Scientific Consensus

• Introduction to the Limits to Growth and Systems Modeling

• Discussion on the Flaws of GDP as an Indicator of Success

• Importance of Systems Thinking and Tipping Points

• Degrowth as a Response to Overshoot and Tipping Points

• Challenges and Opportunities in Transitioning to a Degrowth Paradigm

• The Role of Slime Molds in Understanding Resource Allocation

• The Urgency of Addressing Planetary Boundaries and Resource Scarcity

• The Need for Collective Action and Policy Changes in the Face of Environmental Challenges

• Reflections on the Evolution of Economic Thinking and the Path to Sustainable Development

• "Goals for more growth should specify of what and for what." - 00:00:23-00:00:34

• "It's the difference between knowing that your two packs a day could very well give you cancer and hearing the doctor clear his throat and say, 'I've got something to tell you.'" - 00:01:06-00:01:17

• "Degrowth is just the end result there. It's not like we want that. It's just like you need it because you've got to go on a diet." - 00:06:24-00:06:34

• "We know that the enemy is carbon and we know it's ugly face. We should put a big fat price on it. And of course, add to that, drop the subsidies." - 00:07:16-00:07:26

• "Earth Overshoot Day from the Global Footprint Network using the ecological footprint methodology." - 00:44:29-00:44:40

• "If something cannot go on forever, it will stop. And of course, it will stop. It's unsustainable." - 00:45:01-00:45:11

• "We're using Earth as though we had 1.6 Earths to use. That's the consumption and the rate of resource use we're using." - 00:44:51-00:45:01

• "Most of all, when proposing GDP as an indicator, Kuznets did not intend for it to be used in the way that we're using it now." - 00:46:21-00:46:32

In episode 109 of Bionic Planet, we learn how the Quilombola people of Brazil are blending the IPCC Livelihood Vulnerability Index Assessment with soil carbon methodologies developed under the Verified Carbon Standard (VCS) to save themselves and their soil from urban expansion and agricultural encroachment.

We begin with Sandra Pereira Braga, a descendant of enslaved peoples who has been farming on her family's land for almost 300 years. Sandra's story highlights the importance of recognizing and valuing the traditional practices and accumulated carbon stocks of these communities.

Our main guest is Vasco van Roosmalen, CEO of ReSeed, a startup focused on helping smallholder farmers access climate financing. Vasco discusses the innovative approach taken by ReSeed to support vulnerable farmers who are already practicing regenerative agriculture. By adapting methodologies like VM42 for soil carbon and utilizing the IPCC vulnerability assessments, ReSeed is helping farmers access the funding they need to maintain their existing carbon stocks and continue their sustainable practices.

We also delve back into the challenges of land tenure in Brazil, discussing the complexities of land titles and the implications for carbon projects. The recent Operation Greenwashing by Brazilian authorities targeting projects with fake land titles underscores the importance of ensuring legal ownership and sustainable management practices.

Overall, the episode sheds light on the critical role of smallholder farmers in climate action and the need for innovative approaches to support these communities in preserving their lands and traditional practices. Through initiatives like ReSeed, there is hope for empowering farmers to mitigate climate change and protect their livelihoods for future generations.

• 00:00:00 - Introduction to Regenerative Agriculture in Brazil

• 00:05:30 - Importance of Carbon Finance for Smallholder Farmers

• 00:10:00 - Challenges Faced by Quilombola Communities

• 00:15:00 - Role of Carbon Markets in Agriculture

• 00:20:00 - Methodologies for Assessing Vulnerability and Carbon Stocks

• 00:25:30 - Discussion on VM42 Soil Carbon Methodology

• 00:30:00 - Land Tenure Issues in Brazil

• 00:35:00 - Operation Greenwashing and Land Title Fraud

• 00:40:00 - Challenges of Land Titling and Timber Management

• 00:45:00 - Overlap of Illegal Land Titles and Carbon Projects

• "My people have been on this land for 276 years." - 00:00:38-00:00:50

• "Today's guest, Vasco van Roosmalen, is the CEO of a startup called ReSeed." - 00:02:58-00:03:08

• "We know that the enemy is carbon, and we know its ugly face, we should put a big fat price on it, and of course, add to that, drop the subsidies." - 00:05:52-00:06:04

• "Man may be unwittingly changing the world's climate through the waste products of his civilization." - 00:05:52-00:06:04

• "We need to recognize what they have been doing for 300 years, the accumulating of that biomass in that soil and the protection of the agroforest that they have on their land." - 00:28:39-00:28:50

• "It's a way to quantify actions that need to be taken to help that economic sector move from those high emissions to low emissions." - 00:14:56-00:15:06

• "Smallholder farmers are among the most vulnerable to climate change. They're the front lines of climate change." - 00:16:10-00:16:21

• "We need to really look at their ability to adapt." - 00:33:14-00:33:25

• "It's a step process. First illegal land titles, then sustainable management, timber plans that weren't followed." - 00:45:10-00:45:21

• "But it was all built on the very beginning of those illegal land titles." - 00:46:14-00:46:24

Support me at patreon.com/bionicplanet

Related Links to Follow

In episode 108 of Bionic Planet, I delve into a recent article published by the Washington Post that is riddled with inaccuracies, false premises, and misleading information. The episode serves as a critical analysis of the article, highlighting the importance of fact-checking and the credibility of mainstream media in reporting on complex issues such as climate change and carbon finance.

The episode begins with a passionate rant about the Washington Post's story, titled "How Carbon Cowboys Are Cashing In on Protected Amazon Forest," which misrepresents the reality of carbon credits and their role in combating climate change. The host points out the flaws in the article's framing of the issue of nebulous land titles in the Brazilian Amazon and its failure to provide a nuanced understanding of the complexities involved.

Throughout the episode, the host emphasizes the difference between uncertainty and inaccuracy, drawing on examples from the article to illustrate the importance of distinguishing between the two. The host also references the concept of Gell-Mann amnesia, highlighting the tendency for readers to overlook inaccuracies in one area while trusting the same source on other topics.

The episode delves into the challenges of reporting on climate finance and the need for accurate and nuanced coverage in mainstream media. The host critiques the Washington Post's oversimplification of the issue of tangled land titles in Brazil and highlights the importance of understanding the nuances of carbon finance and climate solutions.

In conclusion, the host calls for a more informed and critical approach to reporting on climate issues, emphasizing the need for accuracy, accountability, and progress in media coverage. The episode ends with a call to support the podcast through Patreon and sponsorship opportunities, highlighting the importance of amplifying legitimate debates and challenging misinformation in the climate realm.

Overall, episode 108 of Bionic Planet offers a thought-provoking analysis of the Washington Post's misleading story, shedding light on the complexities of climate finance and the challenges of reporting on environmental issues in mainstream media.

00:00:00 - Introduction to Rant about Washington Post Article 00:05:30 - Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect 00:11:30 - Critique of Washington Post's Misleading Claims 00:17:45 - Misrepresentation of Carbon Market 00:20:59 - Importance of Voluntary Carbon Market 00:23:10 - Criticism of The Guardian's Perspective 00:25:28 - Examination of World Rainforest Movement 00:29:12 - Issues with Independent Auditing Groups 00:30:14 - Conclusion and Call to Action

• "The only possible explanation for our behavior is amnesia." - 00:05:21-00:05:32

• "We chase the immediate, the ephemeral, and ignore the seismic, the fundamental." - 00:18:37-00:18:48

• "Let's not forget that we're here because we failed." - 00:20:59-00:21:10

• "The fact is that many, and perhaps most, project developers were bleeding red ink for most of the past 15 years." - 00:17:45-00:17:55

• "The Washington Post seriously overstates the prices that developers have received over the past 25 years." - 00:19:38-00:19:48

• "The impetus for this Washington Post piece was a seriously flawed bit of blather called Neocolonialism in the Amazon, Red Projects in Portal, Brazil." - 00:24:46-00:24:57

• "The problems with this Washington Post piece go on and on, but it also raises a few points that could be serious if they turn out to be true, and that's what's so frustrating." - 00:30:14-00:30:24

• "Given the reporter's failure to get even basic premises right, and to insist on presenting an old, gray, intractable problem as a new, simple story complete with heroes and villains, I'm inclined to disbelieve those parts that seem to offer answers where I've only found questions." - 00:30:24-00:30:36

• "I'm not here to balance negative stories with positive ones. I'm here to balance half-baked simplistic gibberish with contextualized complex truth." - 00:31:39-00:31:49

Books referenced in this episode:

"The Discovery of Global Warming" by Spencer Weart (Hypertext version): https://history.aip.org/climate/index.htm

"Lavoisier in the Year One" by Madison Smartt Bell: https://wwnorton.com/books/Lavoisier-in-the-Year-One/

"The Life and Letters of Joseph Black, M. D." by William Ramsay (Hypertext version): https://archive.org/details/lifelettersofjos00ramsrich/page/n5/mode/2up

In this episode of Bionic Planet, we delve into the history of the science underpinning Nature-based Climate Solutions (NbCS), beginning in the 1620s, in the Flemish village of Vilvoorde.

The episode kicks off with the story of Jan Baptist van Helmont, a physician who conducted an experiment planting a five-pound baby willow tree in a 200-pound pot of soil, launching a sequence of events that solved the riddle of where trees come from, accelerated the Industrial Revolution that propelled us to our current state of ecological overshoot, and planted the seeds of our eventual salvation.

The narrative then takes us through the evolution of scientific thought, from the ancient Greek philosophers to the alchemists of the Middle Ages, and eventually to the pioneers of modern chemistry like Joseph Black and Antoine Lavoisier. We explore the concepts of phlogiston, fixed air, and the discovery of oxygen, shedding light on the gradual unraveling of the mysteries of the natural world.

The episode also highlights the contributions of individuals like Joseph Priestley and Jan Ingenhousz, who made key observations about the role of plants in purifying air and the process of photosynthesis. These discoveries laid the foundation for our understanding of how plants breathe in carbon dioxide and release oxygen, shaping our knowledge of the interconnectedness of ecosystems.

The episode wraps up with a brief segue into the concept of latent heat, as elucidated by Joseph Black, and its pivotal role in the development of steam engines. This technological advancement sparked the Industrial Revolution, which delivered previously unimaginable wealth to the world but pushed our planet to the brink of ecological collapse.

As the host, I aim to provide a comprehensive and engaging exploration of the historical milestones that have shaped our understanding of climate and biodiversity finance. By unraveling the untold story of the voluntary carbon market, I seek to dispel myths, challenge simplistic narratives, and foster a deeper appreciation for the complexities of environmental science.

Join me on this enlightening journey through the annals of scientific discovery, as we uncover the threads that connect past breakthroughs to present-day challenges and solutions. Together, we can gain a deeper insight into the intricate web of relationships that sustain life on our bionic planet. Thank you for tuning in to Bionic Planet, where we explore the past to illuminate the path forward.

It's not a series but a vertical, where episodes will drop intermittently over the remainder of the year and probably for years to come.

If you're sharing or referencing the show, please reference the original at https://www.smartermarketspod.com/carbon-frontiers-2024-episode-10-steve-zwick/

The discussion revolves around the historical context of the first generation of REDD projects and the media criticism they have encountered. Steve Zwick emphasizes the importance of understanding the different ideological factions within the climate community and the need to communicate the history and tribes within this realm to combat misinformation and cherry-picking.

Throughout the episode, Steve Zwick provides insights into the development of methodologies, the role of verification and validation bodies (VVBs), and the criticisms faced by projects like Cordillera Azul. He highlights the need for balanced evaluations and constructive critiques to drive progress in the voluntary carbon markets.

The conversation also touches on the challenges faced by journalists and market participants in accurately covering and communicating the complexities of carbon markets. Steve Zwick emphasizes the importance of thorough research, understanding uncertainty, and questioning preconceptions to provide accurate and insightful coverage of projects and methodologies.

Overall, the episode serves as a deep dive into the intricacies of voluntary carbon markets, shedding light on the evolution of methodologies, the role of VVBs, and the need for balanced and informed reporting in this complex and evolving landscape.

• Introduction to the Podcast Episode: 00:00:00-00:00:10

• Discussion on the New Vertical "The Tribes of the Climate Realm": 00:00:10-00:00:31

• Introduction to Smarter Markets Podcast: 00:00:42-00:00:52

• Exploring the Crisis of Information or Trust: 00:00:52-00:01:03

• Sponsorship Message by Base Carbon: 00:01:03-00:01:14

• Introduction to Carbon Frontiers 2024: 00:01:22-00:01:33

• Guest Introduction - Steve Zwick: 00:01:34-00:01:44

• Discussion on REDD Projects and Media Criticism: 00:01:44-00:01:55

• Questioning the Focus on First Generation REDD+ Projects: 00:01:55-00:02:05

• Exploring the Ideological Factions in the Climate Realm: 00:02:05-00:02:16

• Importance of Understanding the History of Markets: 00:02:16-00:02:26

• Benefits and Critiques of First Generation REDD+ Projects: 00:02:26-00:02:37

• Discussion on Baselines in REDD+ Projects: 00:02:37-00:02:47

• Criticism of Baselines and Media Misinterpretation: 00:02:47-00:02:57

• Challenges in Estimating Baselines: 00:02:57-00:03:04

• Critique of REDD+ Baselines and Media Interpretation: 00:03:04-00:03:14

• Discussion on Verification and Validation Bodies (VVBs): 00:03:15-00:03:25

• Role of VVBs in Auditing REDD+ Projects: 00:03:25-00:03:36

• Addressing Weaknesses in VVBs: 00:03:36-00:03:46

• Lessons from Credit Rating Agencies: 00:03:46-00:03:56

• Addressing Issues with VVBs: 00:03:56-00:04:07

• Evaluation of REDD+ Projects and Baselines: 00:04:07-00:04:18

• Discussion on Cordillera Azul Project Criticism: 00:04:18-00:04:28

• Critique of Cordillera Azul Project: 00:04:28-00:04:38

• Analysis of Media Criticism on Cordillera Azul: 00:04:38-00:04:47

• Evaluation of Project Achievements: 00:04:47-00:04:57

• Exploring Misinterpretations in Project Critiques: 00:04:57-00:05:07

• Discussion on Nikkei Asia's Critique: 00:05:07-00:05:17

• Importance of Balanced Reporting: 00:05:17-00:05:27

• Guidelines for Journalists Covering Climate Markets: 00:05:27-00:05:37

• "We have to keep developing new methodologies, but we can't assume the old ones are bad... the old methodologies were much better than people give them credit for." - 00:30:07-00:30:18

• "The whole point of an evolutionary process is figuring out what works, what doesn't, and moving forward." - 00:39:06-00:39:18

• "It's not a one and done thing. Don't think you can drop in, do a piece that's accurate on this and be finished." - 00:44:17-00:44:30

• "Don't think you can drop in, do a piece that's accurate on this and be finished." - 00:44:17-00:44:30

• "We need to do a much better job of explaining... the history of these markets and the science that underpins them." - 00:42:54-00:43:04

• "The old methodologies were much better than people give them credit for." - 00:30:07-00:30:18

• "We have to acknowledge that the whole point of an evolutionary process is figuring out what works, what doesn't, and moving forward." - 00:39:18-00:39:29

• "The whole point of an evolutionary process is figuring out what works, what doesn't, and moving forward." - 00:39:06-00:39:18

• "We need to do a much better job of explaining... the history of these markets and the science that underpins them." - 00:42:54-00:43:04

• "The old methodologies were much better than people give them credit for." - 00:30:07-00:30:18

Marco discusses the challenges faced by Fundaeco in its early days, relying on small grants and volunteers to support their conservation efforts. As the organization grew, they realized the limitations of traditional funding sources and turned to carbon finance as a sustainable solution. Through the creation of a REDD+ project in Caribbean Guatemala, Fundaeco engaged over 700 forest owners and 1,000 forest parcels to protect over 55,000 hectares of forest.

The episode highlights the meticulous process of securing free, prior, and informed consent from communities, educating them about carbon, and designing a transparent benefit-sharing mechanism. Marco emphasizes the importance of building trust with communities and ensuring that they directly benefit from the carbon revenues generated by the project.

Furthermore, Marco explains the methodology used to establish the baseline for the project, utilizing national forest cover maps and regional deforestation rates. He reflects on the long-term impact of REDD+ projects, with a time horizon of 30 years, providing financial sustainability and institutional strength to conservation efforts.

As the episode concludes, Marco underscores the critical role of REDD+ in biodiversity conservation and community development, urging for continuous improvement in standards and transparency. He envisions a future where local conservation NGOs and communities are empowered with carbon knowledge to mobilize capital at the scale needed to protect tropical rainforests.

Listeners are encouraged to support the production of more episodes by becoming patrons of Bionic Planet and leaving five-star reviews to help amplify the message of conservation and climate action. The episode closes with a call to unite in the collective effort to address the climate challenge and safeguard our planet for future generations.

• Introduction to the Episode: 00:00:00-00:01:02

• Transition to Carbon Finance: 00:01:02-00:02:37

• Challenges of Implementing Carbon Finance: 00:02:37-00:03:21

• Overview of the Project in Guatemala: 00:03:21-00:04:54

• Discussion on Climate Change and Anthropocene: 00:04:54-00:05:26

• Interview Introduction with Marco Cerezo: 00:05:26-00:06:06

• Marco Cerezo's Early Conservation Work: 00:06:06-00:09:15

• Funding Challenges and Transition to Carbon Finance: 00:09:15-00:11:36

• Importance of Sustainable Landscapes: 00:11:36-00:13:46

• Agroforestry and Sustainable Farming Practices: 00:13:46-00:14:53

• Implementation of Carbon Finance in Guatemala: 00:15:05-00:17:39

• Establishing Carbon Benefit and Methodologies: 00:17:39-00:19:52

• Community Engagement and Benefit Sharing: 00:20:03-00:27:42

• Long-Term Sustainability and Time Horizon: 00:34:26-00:35:39

• Baseline Establishment and Methodologies: 00:36:01-00:37:46

• Closing Remarks and Call to Action: 00:38:02-00:38:55

David Antonioli, with his extensive experience in climate change and carbon markets, shares insights on the need for a paradigm shift in carbon finance. He emphasizes the importance of designing the system to address what happens when carbon finance ends and the necessity of building a foundation for the future of sustainable practices.

We touch upon real-world examples, such as projects in Paraguay shifting from cattle ranching to sustainable timber harvesting, to illustrate the challenges of individual project assessments and the potential for sector-wide transformations. We discuss the need for thoughtful simplifications in research and understanding market dynamics to identify positive tipping points that can lead to sustainable transitions.

Furthermore, we highlight the positive list approach adopted by organizations like the Climate Action Reserve and the California Resources Board, which use standardized methods to define additional activities upfront. This approach streamlines the process and sets a clear path for achieving long-term sustainability goals.

Overall, the episode delves into the complexities of carbon finance, the importance of explicit transformational strategies, and the potential for sector-wide transitions to drive sustainable practices in the future.

• 00:00:00 - Introduction to Transformational Finance

• 00:05:30 - Challenges in Carbon Accounting

• 00:10:39 - Critique of Additionality Concept

• 00:14:39 - Importance of Holistic Understanding

• 00:17:27 - Need for Interlocking Solutions

• 00:20:36 - Overhauling Local Economies

• 00:23:15 - Implicit vs. Explicit Transformation

• 00:27:06 - Addressing Entrenched Interests

• 00:33:43 - Proposal for Sector-Wide Transformation

• 00:38:02 - Limitations of Current Additionality Tools

• 00:42:24 - Focus on Sector-Wide Transformation

• 00:45:06 - Procedures for Overhauling Local Economies

• "We know that the enemy is carbon, and we know its ugly face. We should put a big fat price on it, and of course, add to that, drop the subsidies." - 00:00:20

• "Everything else is a bonus, a positive externality that critics of carbon finance choose to ignore." - 00:01:42

• "We're missing the forest for the trees." - 00:14:15

• "We're so focused on every single little branch that we've lost what the bigger opportunity is." - 00:44:22

• "We're so in the weeds of the detail." - 00:44:32

• "We're so focused on every single little branch that we've lost what the bigger opportunity is." - 00:44:22

• "We're so in the weeds of the detail." - 00:44:32

• "We're so focused on every single little branch that we've lost what the bigger opportunity is." - 00:44:22

• "We're so in the weeds of the detail." - 00:44:32

• "We're so focused on every single little branch that we've lost what the bigger opportunity is." - 00:44:22

The episode begins by highlighting the significant increase in companies committing to SBTI since January 2023, with many not submitting their plans until January 2025. We learn about the distinction between purists and pragmatists in the climate realm. Purists advocate for the complete elimination of fossil fuels in value chains, while pragmatists emphasize the use of offsets to achieve emission reductions.

Guest speaker Jen Jenkins, Chief Science Officer at Rubicon Carbon, provides valuable insights into the challenges faced by companies in reducing emissions and the balance between pragmatism and purity. Jenkins discusses the importance of understanding a company's value chain, the complexities of emission reduction strategies, and the role of offsets in achieving carbon neutrality.

The episode delves into the debate surrounding the use of offsets in emission reduction strategies, focusing on the conflicting perspectives of purists and pragmatists. Jenkins emphasizes the need for flexibility and practicality in climate action, highlighting the importance of using the available tools to address the climate crisis effectively.

As the discussion unfolds, the episode touches on the need for clear guidelines and standards in emission reduction efforts, the role of the voluntary carbon market in conservation efforts, and the challenges of balancing purity with practicality in climate action. Jenkins and the host explore the complexities of achieving net zero emissions and the importance of finding a middle ground between purist ideals and pragmatic solutions.

The episode concludes with a call to action for companies to engage in emission reduction efforts, highlighting the significance of the voluntary carbon market in driving climate action. Jenkins' insights shed light on the complexities of emission reduction strategies and the importance of practical approaches in addressing the climate crisis.

Join us in exploring the dynamic landscape of emission reduction targets, the role of offsets in climate action, and the ongoing debate between purists and pragmatists in pursuing a sustainable future on Bionic Planet.

• Introduction to SBTI: 00:00:09-00:00:19

• Interface Carpets Case Study: 00:00:23-00:00:33

• Dependence on Fossil Fuels: 00:01:22-00:01:32

• Global Emission Reduction Targets: 00:01:43-00:02:04

• Pragmatic Approach to Emission Reduction: 00:02:24-00:02:34

• Scope 3 Emissions and SBTI Controversy: 00:02:45-00:03:07

• Purists vs. Pragmatists: 00:03:36-00:03:48

• Jen Jenkins Background and Role: 00:05:52-00:06:03

• Transition to Private Sector: 00:07:39-00:07:50

• Jenkins Equations and Carbon Stock Estimation: 00:09:56-00:10:07

• Net Zero vs. Carbon Neutral: 00:11:23-00:11:34

• Challenges in Emission Reduction Planning: 00:13:38-00:13:49

• Renewable Energy Options: 00:16:47-00:16:57

• Customized Emission Reduction Plan: 00:17:39-00:17:50

• Carbon Neutrality by 2030: 00:18:18-00:18:28

• Carbon Neutral vs. Net Zero: 00:32:18-00:32:29

• Purity vs. Pragmatism in Climate Action: 00:36:24-00:36:34

• Role of Voluntary Carbon Market: 00:38:33-00:38:43

• "The purist approach would say, no, no, I need to hold everybody's feet to the fire and ensure that no matter how much it costs, ensure that these companies sort of suss out every single source of fossil fuel in their value chain and obliterate it immediately." - (00:03:48-00:03:58)

• "But we can restore it, make it better, greener, more resilient, more sustainable. But how? Technology? Geoengineering? Are we doomed to live on a bionic planet, or is nature herself the answer?" - (00:04:50-00:05:00)

• "The purists have just been better at communicating. Because pragmatism is about probabilities, uncertainties. Science itself is not about absolutes. It's about finding the concurrent views of most experts." - (00:36:34-00:36:45)

• "We kind of need to use the tools we have, we need to address the problem with what we've got at hand. And I think that's a very pragmatic look at the problem." - (00:37:56-00:38:06)

• "If you do take a purist view, especially in an environment in a market that is voluntary, you're not going to get the action you need." - (00:38:16-00:38:27)

• "The atmosphere is well mixed, we need to reduce emissions globally." - (00:30:58-00:31:09)

• "The voluntary carbon market right now in the near term is a fantastic way to help conserve those existing forests so that we retain both their carbon stocks and the important biodiversity." - (00:32:07-00:32:17)

• "The U.S. government earlier this week made a strong show of support for the voluntary carbon market." - (00:34:30-00:34:40)

• "We all want to get there. We're all motivated to get to net zero. But a pragmatic approach would say, look, if you're in an industry where the next least costly abatement action is going to cost you more than it would cost to purchase an offset, then you should go ahead and buy the offset." - (00:30:05-00:30:15)

• "We need to reduce emissions globally. The purest approach would say, no, no, I need to hold everybody's feet to the fire and ensure that no matter how much it costs, ensure that these companies sort of suss out every single source of fossil fuel in their value chain and obliterate it immediately." - (00:31:20-00:31:33)

Dr. Pontius discussed his journey into the field of geography, highlighting his passion for mathematics and maps. He emphasized the importance of simplicity in modeling and the need to eliminate distractions to focus on the essence of the problem.

The conversation delved into the complexities of land change modeling, addressing the challenges of uncertainty and the balance between simplicity and complexity in predictive models. Dr. Pontius emphasized the importance of transparency in modeling and the need to acknowledge and learn from mistakes in scientific research.

The discussion also touched on the evolution of methodologies in land change modeling, with Dr. Pontius advocating for a continuous learning process and adaptation based on new scientific insights. He highlighted the importance of open communication and collaboration in maximizing learning and addressing challenges in the field.

Overall, the episode provided valuable insights into the world of geographic information science, emphasizing the need for continuous improvement, transparency, and open dialogue in scientific research and modeling practices. Dr. Pontius's expertise and passion for the subject shone through, making for an engaging and enlightening conversation.

• "I do this because I enjoy it. And I feel completely comfortable with saying that, because if you don't enjoy it, you're not going to dedicate time to it." - 00:04:52-00:05:02

• "What good scientists do, they learn from their mistakes, and they admit them, and they say what their motivation was at the time, and then they clarify it and present something better." - 00:12:49-00:13:00

• "I wanted to give an example to the research community because I see variation even among professors in their motivations." - 00:13:00-00:13:12

• "We're not in the business of trying to say that we've solved all the problems. That's not what good scientists do." - 00:14:51-00:15:01

• "I'm not willing to take on a student unless that student is willing to tell me when they think I'm wrong." - 00:29:23-00:29:33

• "Mathematicians are always trying to eliminate distractions, get to the essence of something, and make it as simple and transparent as possible." - 00:48:07-00:48:17

• "It's trivial to choose to look at something in such detail that it's impossible to predict accurately. Easy to do." - 00:50:07-00:50:18

• "If we're doing the same thing we were doing 30 years ago, it means either 30 years ago we were so brilliant that we knew everything, or if we're doing the same thing we were doing 30 years ago, that means we haven't learned anything in 30 years." - 00:55:18-00:55:28

• "Learning is not guaranteed. Just look around the world today. I mean, things can go backward." - 00:55:29-00:55:39

• "Is capitalism or communism good or bad? It depends how it's implemented. Is religion good or bad? It depends how it's implemented." - 00:56:55-00:57:05

Two weeks ago, climate pioneer Interface Inc announced they would become carbon-negative across all their operations by 2040, enabling them to move beyond the use of carbon credits.

Some people heralded this as a sign that the days of offsetting emissions are over, but that's not exactly true – at least not yet.

Most companies aren't as far along on their climate journeys as Interface is, and we still need offsets to accelerate reductions in the next decade. The fact is a company's decision to offset or not depends on its unique circumstances.

In this episode of Bionic Planet, we delve into the remarkable journey of Interface, Inc., a flooring tile manufacturer that has been at the forefront of climate action since CEO Ray Anderson (pictured) the 1990s.

The episode explores how Interface's early efforts to offset emissions paved the way for their groundbreaking carbon-negative carpet line, which absorbs more greenhouse gas than it emits over its lifecycle.

We replay a 2021 interview with Buddy Hay, the industrial engineer who played a pivotal role in quantifying Interface's emissions, and we detail the company's transition to offsetting, the challenges they faced in measuring and reducing their carbon footprint, and the evolution of the voluntary carbon market, the role of verification and validation in offsetting, and the importance of natural climate solutions -- as well as how the company used offsets the right way: to reduce emissions in the present while developing technologies that enabled it to move beyond offsetting in the future.

Related Link: https://www.ecosystemmarketplace.com/articles/interface-making-carpets-cool/

In Episode 100 of Bionic Planet, part of the Tribes of the Climate Realm vertical, we delve into the origins of the voluntary carbon market -- a story that has never been told before.

Today's show is the first of many offering a truer, completer, and more accurate glimpse into the origins of the Voluntary Carbon Market than you've probably ever heard before.

The episode draws on a 2022 discussion with environmental economists Marc Stuart and Mark Kenber, who were instrumental in creating the Verified Carbon Standard (VCS) in 2005 to meet two core objectives: first, to accelerate emission reductions in the wake of failed government policy and, second, to test new approaches to meeting the climate challenge.

We offer a brief history of climate negotiations leading up to 2005 and the exclusion of forest protection and sustainable farming from the Kyoto Protocol and the Marrakesh Accords. The discussion touches on the complexities of integrating these crucial elements into the market, emphasizing the importance of balancing environmental integrity with development-focused activities.

Join me, Steve Zwick, in this insightful journey through the history and evolution of the voluntary carbon market, as we strive to create a more sustainable future for our planet. Thank you for tuning in to Episode 100 of Bionic Planet.

Related Links

049 | Forests in the Paris Climate Agreement, Part 1: The Birth of Forest Carbon https://bionic-planet.com/podcast-episode/049-forests-in-the-paris-climate-agreement-part-1-the-birth-of-forest-carbon/

064 | Race to Zero: Meet the Taskforce on Scaling Voluntary Carbon https://bionic-planet.com/podcast-episode/064-race-to-zero-meet-the-taskforce-on-scaling-voluntary-carbon/

75 l Coverage of Climate Solutions Suffer the Same Fate as Coverage of Climate Science? https://bionic-planet.com/podcast-episode/75-l-coverage-of-climate-solutions-suffer-the-same-fate-as-coverage-of-climate-science/

Timestamps

• Introduction to the History of the Voluntary Carbon Market

• The Origins of the Verified Carbon Standard (VCS)

• The Role of Carbon Markets in Addressing Climate Change

• The Failure of Governments to Address Climate Change

• The Evolution of Voluntary Carbon Standards

• The Importance of Ending Deforestation

• The Emergence of Voluntary Carbon Markets in the 1980s

• The Kyoto Protocol and the Clean Development Mechanism (CDM)

• The Exclusion of Forest Protection from the Kyoto Protocol

• The Creation of the Voluntary Carbon Standard (VCS)

• Challenges in Implementing Standards for Forest Protection

• The Need for Unified Rules in Carbon Markets

• The Involvement of NGOs, Businesses, and Organizations in Developing Standards

• The Controversy Surrounding Inclusion of Forest Conservation

• The Importance of Addressing Permanence and Fungibility

• The Collaboration Between NGOs and Businesses in Developing Standards

• The Importance of Including Forest Conservation in Carbon Markets

• The Role of NGOs in Advocating for Inclusion of Forest Conservation

• The Significance of Learning from Past Lessons

• Call to Action for Support and Sponsorship

In Episode 99 of Bionic Planet, recorded in Mombasa, Kenya, the focus is on the efforts to revive the coastal mangrove forests that protect the seaside city and support its fishing sector. The episode features guests from the community-based organization, Big Ship, who have been working on mangrove conservation for 15 years.

The episode delves into the challenges faced in persuading communities to understand the importance of conserving mangroves and the innovative financing mechanisms used by Big Ship to fund their restoration efforts. The guests discuss the crucial role mangroves play in carbon sequestration, coastal protection, and supporting marine life.

The conversation highlights the Adopt-a-Site model employed by Big Ship, where degraded mangrove areas are identified, restored, and monitored over time. The guests emphasize the importance of engaging with the community, government institutions, and partners to ensure the sustainability of mangrove restoration projects.

The episode also explores the impact of youth involvement in mangrove conservation and the promotion of ecotourism as a sustainable income source for coastal communities. The guests share their experiences with the VIM program, which focuses on career mentorship and skill development for the youth.

Overall, the episode showcases the multi-faceted approach taken by Big Ship to address the challenges of mangrove conservation, promote community engagement, and create alternative livelihoods for coastal residents. The guests' insights shed light on the importance of cultural preservation, environmental awareness, and long-term sustainability in mangrove restoration efforts.

Listeners are encouraged to support the podcast by leaving a five-star review and considering becoming a patron to help fund future episodes that aim to educate and inspire action in climate and biodiversity conservation finance.

Timestamps

In Episode 99 of Bionic Planet, recorded in Mombasa, Kenya, the focus is on the efforts to revive the coastal mangrove forests that protect the seaside city and support its fishing sector. The episode features guests from the community-based organization, Big Ship, who have been working on mangrove conservation for 15 years.

The episode delves into the challenges faced in persuading communities to understand the importance of conserving mangroves and the innovative financing mechanisms used by Big Ship to fund their restoration efforts. The guests discuss the crucial role mangroves play in carbon sequestration, coastal protection, and supporting marine life.

The conversation highlights the Adopt-a-Site model employed by Big Ship, where degraded mangrove areas are identified, restored, and monitored over time. The guests emphasize the importance of engaging with the community, government institutions, and partners to ensure the sustainability of mangrove restoration projects.

The episode also explores the impact of youth involvement in mangrove conservation and the promotion of ecotourism as a sustainable income source for coastal communities. The guests share their experiences with the VIM program, which focuses on career mentorship and skill development for the youth.

Overall, the episode showcases the multi-faceted approach taken by Big Ship to address the challenges of mangrove conservation, promote community engagement, and create alternative livelihoods for coastal residents. The guests' insights shed light on the importance of cultural preservation, environmental awareness, and long-term sustainability in mangrove restoration efforts.

• 00:00:00 - Introduction to Big Ship Organization in Mombasa, Kenya

• 00:05:30 - Overview of Big Ship's Thematic Areas and Programs

• 00:10:27 - The Adopt-a-Site Model for Mangrove Restoration

• 00:15:01 - The Impact of the VIM Program on Youth Participants

• 00:21:09 - Discussion on Carbon Finance and Alternative Financing Mechanisms

• 00:25:24 - Challenges Faced in Spreading Awareness and Engaging Communities

• 00:29:07 - Youth Awareness and Engagement in Mangrove Conservation

• 00:32:45 - Community Entry Strategy for Restoration Efforts

• 00:36:51 - Project Areas and Viability of Investments

• 00:37:48 - Youth Training and Ecotourism Program Promotion

• 00:40:13 - Cultural Adaptation and Appreciation in Coastal Communities

• 00:40:42 - Closing Remarks and Call to Action

Quotes

• "You want to protect that ecosystem. So you keep on pushing and pushing until it comes into their senses and they get to realize they need to conserve." - 00:00:35

• "We know that the enemy is carbon, and we know its ugly face. We should put a big fat price on it, and of course, add to that, drop the subsidies." - 00:01:29

• "Mangroves shield the coast from storms and erosion, provide habitat for baby fish, and pull carbon dioxide from the atmosphere at a rate about 10 times higher per hectare than terrestrial forests do." - 00:01:57

• "But you quickly realized that the cost of even conservative harvesting, in terms of reduced protection, increased erosion, and plummeting fish stocks, not to mention climate impacts, dwarfed any income that people could get from timber sales." - 00:03:23

• "We are trying to tap into new areas. We also have a program that focuses on ecotourism. We want to venture into that." - 00:07:32

• "The investors are the partners who adopted sites. Like corporate? Even individual." - 00:12:51

• "It's not really about being philanthropic, but just being reality, to be alive to the fact that conservation is a process." - 00:13:24

• "We are not interested in those huge chunks of plants for restoration. If the size of this room, which you can adopt, is enough to facilitate sustainability into the ecosystem, then let's apply it." - 00:24:03

• "The finance will come. That's what I keep telling myself about this show." - 00:27:17

• "You want to protect that ecosystem. So you keep on pushing and pushing until it comes into their senses and they get to realize they need to conserve." - 00:32:55

With no clarity over control and no realistic way of enforcing it, there's no way to sustainably manage and protect this massive bulwark against climate change.

Today's episode centers around a few individuals, most notably a Japan-born physician named Jonas Morioka, who migrated to Brazil in the 1980s, purchased timberland in the 1990s, pivoted to conservation in the 2000s, and is now embroiled in a title fight over a transaction that may or may not have taken place a century ago.

His story is far from unique, and it shows how easy it is to chop the forest, how difficult it is to save it, and how tenure disputes make it even more difficult to leverage carbon finance for the common good.

My guests are Vinny Maffei and Olivier LeJune of Quantum Commodity Intelligence. We collaborated in a recent story they ran called "How a decree created a REDD old mess in Brazil, and the new effort to fix it," which you can read here:

https://www.qcintel.com/carbon/article/long-read-how-a-decree-created-a-redd-old-mess-in-brazil-and-the-new-effort-to-fix-it-23409.html

Quotes

• "To meet the climate challenge, we must save the Amazon." - 00:02:38-00:02:49

• "Decades of research have shown that you reduce deforestation in part by reducing poverty, and you reduce poverty in part by giving people an incentive to manage land sustainably." - 00:04:23-00:04:34

• "Brazil is very famous for having a lot of large properties owned by just a few people. It's a very unequal country." - 00:19:33-00:19:44

• "Forest conservation starts with the people in and around the forest." - 00:28:16-00:28:26

• "Deforestation isn't a puzzle book with answers in the back. It's a wicked problem with no simple solution." - 00:30:24-00:30:36

• "There are groups out there that are devoted to going in and finding things wrong." - 00:45:01-00:45:12

• "There's a lot of interest around REDD+, amongst the media and other actors." - 00:46:39-00:46:49

Timestamps

• 00:00:00 - Introduction to the Climate Challenge

• 00:05:30 - Introduction of Michael Greene and Initial Impressions

• 00:10:12 - Overview of Land Titles in Para, Brazil

• 00:14:06 - Discussion on Pará State and Porto Region

• 00:18:29 - Jonas Morioka's Land Purchases and Legal Issues

• 00:21:48 - Land Ownership and Settlements

• 00:25:52 - Legal Disputes and Involvement of Public Defender

• 00:30:03 - Discussion on Indigenous and Environmental Groups

• 00:32:27 - Arguments Regarding Land Rights and Conservation Efforts

• 00:37:00 - Negotiations with ITERPA and School Construction

• 00:41:21 - Financial Aspects and Legal Agreements

• 00:43:10 - Status of School Construction and Legal Challenges

This episode of Bionic Planet is entitled "The Mosaic, the Minefield, and a Manifesto."

The "Mosaic" reminds us that there is no single solution to the climate challenge. Instead, we have a mosaic of interlocking solutions that fit together like a clock. Carbon finance is just one part of it, and it's one of the few parts that have worked well, albeit imperfectly.

The "Minefield" reminds us that the mosaic of solutions sits in an ideological minefield, and you never know if you're going to trigger an explosion.

The "Manifesto" is my promise to leverage my 20 years of experience in environmental finance to give you a truer, more nuanced, and complete understanding of the climate and biodiversity landscapes than you'll get anyplace else.

The New Vertical

This episode is part of a new vertical called "the Tribes of the Climate Realm" to reflect the fact that the climate community is a disunited hodgepodge of tribes who occasionally unite against a common enemy, but who are divided by ideological and sectarian differences that sometimes erupt into something akin to civil war. Tragically, as often happens in these situations, the most combative, belligerent, and least civilized tribes are usually the most colorful, despite having the least to offer. That's led to a dangerous disconnect between the real debates taking place inside the climate realm and the public discourse unfolding outside of it.

I initially started to call this vertical "Unmasking the Anti-REDD Crusade," because there is a very high-profile anti-REDD crusade, but I felt that frame was too narrow and dismissive of legitimate challenges, philosophical disputes, and areas where reasonable people can disagree.

It's part of a new vertical that I'm calling "The Tribes of the Climate Realm" to reflect the fact that the climate community is not a monolithic entity but is, instead, something like a disunified realm spread across thousands of contested miles of mountains, plains, and forests, with competing tribes and factions and all the different perspectives, agendas, and intrigue that come with it.

The Tribes of the Climate Realm may occasionally unite against a common enemy –- climate change –- but they're divided by ideological and sectarian differences that sometimes erupt into something akin to civil war.

Tragically, as often happens in these situations, the most combative, belligerent, and least civilized tribes usually have the least to offer but are also the most colorful, so they win the hearts and minds of outsiders drawn to bright, shiny objects –- which is to say, most of us who've ignored the Climate Realm and its internecine battles until recently -- despite the fact that the realm and its battles have been very public since the United Nations' First World Climate Conference in 1979.

Related Links

Will Coverage of Climate Solutions Suffer the Same Fate as Coverage of Climate Science

Six Lessons from the History of Natural Climate Solutions

Where Does Healthy Critique End and Cynical Denial Begin?

Timestamps 00:00:00 - Introduction to the Tribes of the Climate Realm 00:04:10 - Introduction to Enhanced Weathering as a Solution 00:05:03 - Historical Background of Enhanced Weathering 00:06:29 - Debate Over Enhanced Weathering Methodologies 00:07:10 - Purpose of the Voluntary Carbon Market 00:08:03 - Mark Kenber's Perspective on Climate Efforts 00:09:21 - Marc Stewart's Contribution to Forest Carbon Protocol 00:09:55 - Media Misrepresentation of Carbon Markets 00:10:39 - Challenges Faced by the Verified Carbon Standard 00:12:14 - Importance of Accurate Storytelling in Climate Discourse 00:13:09 - Call for Sponsorship and Support for Bionic Planet 00:14:23 - Emphasizing the Complexity of Climate Solutions 00:16:30 - Contrasting Narratives in the Climate Realm 00:17:44 - Manifesto for Honest and Nuanced Climate Reporting 00:19:08 - Exploration of VCS Genesis and Carbon Projects 00:20:01 - Conclusion and Call to Action

Quotes • 00:00:31-00:00:42 "Tragically, as often happens in these situations, the most combative, belligerent, and least civilized tribes are usually the most colorful, despite having the least to offer." • 00:01:18-00:01:29 "We need to elevate the public discourse. But that doesn't mean replacing anti-market propaganda with pro-market propaganda, although it does mean purging the bunk that's out there already." • 00:04:10-00:04:20 "I smelled more than money in his mail. I smelled a rat." • 00:05:03-00:05:14 "In rocks, it happens over millions of years, while in trees, it happens over decades." • 00:07:42-00:07:53 "Let's not forget that we're here because we failed." • 00:16:30-00:16:40 "The first native has an easier story to tell, but the second one has a truer story to tell."

Hemp, she explains, replenishes faster than wood, uses far less water than cotton, and has almost no waste.

Its ecological benefits are clear, and she hopes carbon finance can be used to overcome the financial challenges to scaling up.

Supplemental Reading: "Commodities at a Glance: Special Issue on Industrial Hemp"

https://www.mycannabis.com/cannabis-in-zimbabwe-conversation-with-dr-maroveke/

She's one of more than a dozen young Africans I met at year-end climate talks in Dubai (COP 28) -- a new breed of entrepreneur that the late Ghanian economist George Ayittey calls "cheetahs" because they're nimble, quick, and hungry.

Green Cheetahs pursue activities that are pro-nature as well as pro-growth, and today's guest certainly fits that bill.

Second in a series

Then the Kenya Forestry and Wildlife Services teamed up with the Maasai Wilderness Conservation Trust, the Big Life Foundation, the Sheldrake Wildlife Trust, Conservation International, and, most importantly, grazing collectives, called "community group ranches" to launch the Chyulu Hills REDD+ Project — a thirty-year private-public partnership designed to save the hills by overhauling the rural economy.

First in a series focused on ecological restoration in southern and central Kenya.

Today, he offers his take on the year-end climate talks (COP27), which took place last month in Sharm El-Sheikh, Egypt.

We discuss the Bridgetown Initiative, the African Carbon Markets Initiative, and the new Loss and Damage Fund -- as well as the bad-faith arguments of those seeking to undermine carbon markets by pretending to make them perfect.

This is the story of the creation of that methodology.

Further reading:

https://verra.org/methodologies/methodology-for-improved-agricultural-land-management/

Sackett v EPA dates back to 2004, but the forces impacting the case date back to the 1960s and, arguably, centuries earlier.

Today we revisit a 2019 episode, where we dove deep into the history of the US Clean Water Act and the stealth effort to undermine it.

Related Links:

https://www.worldlandtrust.org/news/2021/10/marco-cerezo/

https://registry.verra.org/mymodule/ProjectDoc/Project_ViewFile.asp?FileID=43006&IDKEY=2iquwesdfmnk0iei23nnm435oiojnc909dsflk9809adlkmlkfd59305274

All links available at:

https://www.ecosystemmarketplace.com/articles/opinionwhere-does-healthy-critique-end-and-cynical-denial-begin/

https://www.ecosystemmarketplace.com/articles/opinionwhere-does-healthy-critique-end-and-cynical-denial-begin/

Click here for the original story and all related links: https://www.ecosystemmarketplace.com/articles/opinionsix-lessons-from-the-history-of-natural-climate-solutions/

Adapted from stories that first appeared on Ecosystem Marketplace, available here: https://medium.com/@stevenwilliamzwick/will-coverage-of-climate-solutions-suffer-the-same-fate-as-coverage-of-climate-science-b63877e090f1

Related Links:

https://vcm-gd.org/

https://www.ecosystemmarketplace.com/articles/shades-of-redd-corresponding-adjustments-for-voluntary-markets-seriously/

Frances is also co-author of the book "Why Forests? Why Now? The Science, Economics, and Politics of Tropical Forests and Climate Change."

Want to put your money where your mouth is by investing in companies that move us closer to a net-zero economy?

Matthias Krey of pureclimatestocks.com can help.

He's identified hundreds of companies that he call "pure climate stocks", meaning stocks of companies that make 100% of their revenue from products and services that will help get us to net-zero emissions.

They explain not only how it works, but how it fits into the net-zero movement and the larger effort to meet the climate challenge.

The Declaration commits companies to cutting their emissions in half by 2030 and achieving net-zero emissions by 2050, with all residual emissions being absorbed through ecological restoration by 2050 at the latest.

More than 300 stakeholders have signed the declaration, including the World Travel & Tourism Council (WTTC), which represents more than 300 companies responsible for more than 70 percent of global tourism.

"The commitment is to not only reduce the footprint by changing business as usual operations, but also offsetting…through blue carbon, for example," said UNWTO Executive Director Zoritsa Urosevic in an interview with Ecosystem Marketplace.

"This is going to become, maybe, the new tourism attraction, because it's going to have a value that is more than just the beach."

She said that the UNWTO is in the process of launching a net- zero tourism fund, with contributions from tourists being matched by tour operators.

UNWTO Secretary-General Zurab Pololikashvili conceded the gains that individual companies have made but stressed the need for a sector-wide effort involving government and international organizations as well.

"The Glasgow Declaration is a tool to help bridge the gap between good intentions and meaningful climate action," he said.

Urosevic described an ambitious strategy for using tourism to promote regeneration, especially of coral reefs, but stressed the need to hold the sector accountable.

That's the ambition, but we're not there yet and we need your help," she said.

"We need everyone's help," she added.

The Declaration commits companies to cutting their emissions in half by 2030 and achieving net-zero emissions by 2050, with all residual emissions being absorbed through ecological restoration by 2050 at the latest.

More than 300 stakeholders have signed the declaration, including the World Travel & Tourism Council (WTTC), which represents more than 300 companies responsible for more than 70 percent of global tourism.

"The commitment is to not only reduce the footprint by changing business as usual operations, but also offsetting…through blue carbon, for example," said UNWTO Executive Director Zoritsa Urosevic in an interview with Ecosystem Marketplace.

"This is going to become, maybe, the new tourism attraction, because it's going to have a value that is more than just the beach."

She said that the UNWTO is in the process of launching a net- zero tourism fund, with contributions from tourists being matched by tour operators.

UNWTO Secretary-General Zurab Pololikashvili conceded the gains that individual companies have made but stressed the need for a sector-wide effort involving government and international organizations as well.

"The Glasgow Declaration is a tool to help bridge the gap between good intentions and meaningful climate action," he said.

Urosevic described an ambitious strategy for using tourism to promote regeneration, especially of coral reefs, but stressed the need to hold the sector accountable.

That's the ambition, but we're not there yet and we need your help," she said.

"We need everyone's help," she added.

In a wide-ranging discussion, we look at the legacy of the Taskforce on Scaling Voluntary Carbon Markets, the structure of supply chains, and the interconnectedness of all things.

In a wide-ranging discussion, we look at the legacy of the Taskforce on Scaling Voluntary Carbon Markets, the structure of supply chains, and the interconnectedness of all things.

In a wide-ranging discussion, we look at the legacy of the Taskforce on Scaling Voluntary Carbon Markets, the structure of supply chains, and the interconnectedness of all things.

Launched on Earth Day, the LEAF (Lowering Emissions by Accelerating Forest finance) Coalition aims to double the price of forest-carbon offsets and multiply the amount of money going into forest protection. Heres's how it works.

Featuring: Norwegian Prime Minister Erna Solberg; US Climate Envoy John Kerry; UK's Environment Minister Lord Zac Goldsmith; US State Dept Climate Change and Land Sector Expert Chris Dragisic; Amazon Chief Scientist Jamey Mulligan.

We discuss the realities of systemic climate risk.

Research cited in today's show:

"The private sector's climate change risk and adaptation blind spots"

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41558-018-0340-5

"Persistent Business Blind Spots on Climate Risk and Adaptation,"

http://gca.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Persistent_Business_Blind_Spots_on_Climate_Risk_and_Adaptation.pdf

The Climate Web: www.theclimateweb.com

Climate Web Roadmaps:

https://roadmapslite.climatesites.net

https://roadmapunderestimatedrisk.climatesites.net

https://systemicriskroadmaplite.climatesites.net

Videos: Playing Climate Chess using the Climate Web https://youtu.be/cnf7FM2zfNg

Actionable Climate Knowledge through the Climate Web https://youtu.be/L37v2-DXWk0

Solving Climate Change with the Climate Web https://youtu.be/Py9eJM2DRT0

Link to wildfire risk map: https://bra.in/6pygXQ

We discuss the realities of systemic climate risk.

Research cited in today's show:

"The private sector's climate change risk and adaptation blind spots"

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41558-018-0340-5

"Persistent Business Blind Spots on Climate Risk and Adaptation,"

http://gca.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Persistent_Business_Blind_Spots_on_Climate_Risk_and_Adaptation.pdf

The Climate Web: www.theclimateweb.com

Climate Web Roadmaps:

https://roadmapslite.climatesites.net

https://roadmapunderestimatedrisk.climatesites.net

https://systemicriskroadmaplite.climatesites.net

Videos: Playing Climate Chess using the Climate Web https://youtu.be/cnf7FM2zfNg

Actionable Climate Knowledge through the Climate Web https://youtu.be/L37v2-DXWk0

Solving Climate Change with the Climate Web https://youtu.be/Py9eJM2DRT0

Link to wildfire risk map: https://bra.in/6pygXQ

Guest: Buddy Hay, Interface VP for Sustainability

Most music provided by Blue Dot Sessions

Will Burns of the Institute for Carbon Removal Law and Policy at American University joins me in a year-end retrospective.

Related Link: https://www.ecosystemmarketplace.com/articles/em-audio-and-video-em-vietnamese-deputy-prime-minister-opens-katoomba-xvii-vows-to-integrate-economy-and-environment/

Born in Kansas and raised in California, Rev Durley finished high-school in Oregon and then marched with Martin Luther King Jr while earning his first of may academic degrees -- this one in psychology at Tennessee State. While there, Bobby Kennedy noticed him and persuaded Durley to join the Peace Corp, which he did. That brought him to Nigeria, then to Switzerland before coming home to the United States and becoming a central figure in Atlanta's Civil Rights scene.

He says we can tap the same forces that galvanized the Civil Rights movement to fix the climate mess, but only if we recognize its inherently moral nature.

That cost-cutting measure could cost hundreds of thousands of lives, and it's a classic example of what happens when we value efficiency over resilience.

What are efficiency and resilience?

Today we draw on the work of Cardiff University Lecturer Paul Nieuwenhuis to find out.

Today's guest is a key part of its success.

As Minister of Environment, Energy and Telecommunications, Carlos Manuel Rodriguez has overseen programs that tripled the country's forest coverage while slashing its use of fossil fuels -- all while growing its economy.

The fee will be based on the amount of greenhouse gas that the coal, gasoline, and jet fuels will generate when we burn them, and it will probably make fossil-fuel energy more expensive.

But there's a catch -- or, the opposite of a catch... a bonus -- a dividend, if you will, because that's what CCL calls it.

Under the proposed "Energy Innovation and Carbon Dividend Act," all money raised by the carbon fee will go back to US citizens in the form of a dividend.

We each pay into the system based on how much energy we use -- whether in the form of an extra few cents at the pump or slightly higher groceries -- but every single citizen gets the same dividend back.

A fee-and-dividend system is different from the cap-and-trade programs that I usually focus on, for lots of reasons we get into.

Daniel says that a fee-and-dividend scenario has bilateral support, especially among younger Republicans, and he has the data to back that up.

At a carbon price of $50 for every metric ton of CO2 removed from the atmosphere, for example, Costa Rica can go beyond net-zero and end up pulling four times as much greenhouse gas out of the atmosphere as its entire economy emits right now. At that same carbon price, the Central African Republic can use NCS strategies to boost its GDP a staggering 90 percent.

Authored by scientists from 17 organizations, the new paper looks at 12 natural climate solutions across 79 tropical countries and identifies activities that can reduce carbon dioxide emissions by 6.6 billion metric tons per year – ore more than all of the emissions generated by the United States – at a price of $50 per ton or lower.

"We found a wide variance among countries in the types of interventions that can deliver results," said lead author Bronson Griscom, Senior Director of Natural Climate Solutions for Conservation International. "The Solomon Islands, for example, can make tremendous gains by managing their production forests more effectively, while Kenya can make tremendous gains by doing the same with agriculture."

The paper comes at a critical moment in human development, with humankind now actively managing more than half of Earth's ice-free land.

"The human footprint is expanding, and the population is still growing, but the rate of population growth is declining," says Griscom on an episode of the Bionic Planet podcast scheduled to drop on January 28. "Meanwhile, our technology – our practices for agriculture – are continuing to improve so that we can produce more food per hectare from one decade to the next."

We have, he says, the know-how to feed the world and reduce our footprint at the same time, but it comes as climate change threatens to decimate the world's living ecosystems.

"This is hundreds of years in the making, and we're at this inflection point now," he says. "Ecotopia is out there, but so is climate change with all its potential tipping points in ecosystems and looming mass migration due to societal collapse."

It's an all-or-nothing proposition.

"We have all of these solutions in front of us, and we have this ticking clock," he says. "We know what to do, and we have the means of doing it, but we have just a decade to do it."

With so many different countries and so many different economies, he sees a phased approach where some countries move now and others follow in their wake.

"Some countries have the resources and governance to move right now," he says. "The idea is, 'Let's help those countries move quickly now, and let's invest this decade in helping those other countries to prepare for major actions.'"

That's why today's guest, Charlotte Streck, wants to implement a Marshall Plan for Forests.

Related Articles:

"Shades of REDD+: A Marshall Plan for Tropical Forests?"

Link: https://www.ecosystemmarketplace.com/articles/shades-of-redd-a-marshall-plan-for-tropical-forests/

"Forests, Farms, and the Global Carbon Sink: The Genesis"

Link: https://www.ecosystemmarketplace.com/articles/forests-farms-global-carbon-sink-genesis/

In this episode, we examine the 40-year effort to slow climate change by saving forests. It's the first of three parts developed in accompaniment with the Ecosystem Marketplace series "Forests, Farms, and the Global Carbon Sink: It's Happening"

Guest: Kevin Conrad, Coalition for Rainforest Nations

Beef, for example, comes from cows that burp out methane, which is a powerful greenhouse gas that traps up to 80-times more heat than carbon dioxide does, and we often chop carbon-absorbing forests to graze those methane-emitting cows, only to throw away one-third of all the food we produce.

If there are two things scientists who study this stuff agree on, it's that we can slow climate change by eating less meat and wasting less food, according to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change's (IPCC) new Special Report on Climate Change and Land (SRCCL), which was published this morning in Geneva.

Now a coalition of more than a dozen NGOs have called the corporate bluff by creating a framework that provides a universal way of accounting for deforestation.

They call it the Accountability Framework, and today's guest, Jeff Milder, is one of the people helping to pull it together.

Most economists will tell you they're both wrong, because there's no such thing as either a pure free market or a marketless society. We need markets to get things done, and we need governance to keep markets honest.

That's especially true in environmental markets, which almost always exist because of laws that require people to clean up their messes or reduce their pollution.

To slow climate change, for example, we have to put a cap on greenhouse-gas emissions, but how do we meet that cap?

There are basically two ways.

In command-and-control, a regulator writes up detailed, step-by-step prescriptions that have to be followed to the letter.

In cap-and-trade, which is a market-based mechanism, emitters find their own way of meeting the cap, and they're allowed to sell emission-reductions to others if they reduce more than the law requires. On the other hand, they also have to buy emission-reductions if they fail to meet their obligations.

If you're a regular listener, you know that carbon is just one of many environmental markets that are helping to fuel a $25 billion per year restoration economy, and that's just in the United States, as companies and municipalities rush to restore degraded rivers, forests, and other ecosystems on which our entire economy depends.

Environmental markets, however, don't replace regulation. What they do is provide flexibility in meeting regulatory requirements.

They work, and they work well, but only if properly regulated.

Unfortunately, regulators have seen their budgets frozen or even cut -- ostensibly to reduce costs. The result, ironically, isn't just less protection, but higher costs of compliance.

Today's Guests:

Todd BenDor, University of North Carolina Chapel Hill

Jason Brenner, RiverBank

Murray Starkel, Ecological Service Partners

Jud Hill, Ecological Service Partners

Dave Groves, Earth Partners

Can Pay for Success work in ecological restoration?

Dave Neu and Joe Krischon of the Conservation Land Stewardship have been helping to resurrect a degraded ravine north of Chicago, and today they explain how this backbreaking work helps revive colonies of bees and butterflies, and how you, too, can join the restoration economy.

Back in December, the US EPA and Army corps of engineers unveiled new rules for regulating water, and you'd be surprised what it leaves out. More half of the country's wetlands will no longer have federal protection, and neither will so-called "ephemeral streams", that only flow in certain conditions.

As of February 15, the public has 60 days to comment on the rule, so I'm running this piece I posted way back in August. If you're a paying patron, you will not be charged for this, and if you're not a patron, I invite you to become one at bionic-planet.com or at patreon.com/bionic planet.

I planned this piece as a two-parter, but haven't delivered the second half yet because I couldn't afford to, and that's a fact. These packages, with multiple voices and tons of research take a lot of work, and I've got a full-time job that's really time and a half as Editor of Ecosystem Marketplace. I did write a five-part series that achieves what the second half of this podcast was supposed to do, and if enough people give me enough support, I'll also be able to finish that second half, which would be great!

I hope you like the show, and I especially hope it moves you to action. You have nothing to lose but your clean water.

That's a question I tried answering almost three years ago -- way back in 2016. It was right after world leaders had reached the Paris Climate Agreement, and right before my fellow countrymen shot the world in the butt by electing Donald Trump as President of the United States.

This encore presentation looks at the Sustainable Development Goals -- the SDGs -- which are more important now than ever -- and I think today's show, even though it's almost three years old, is more relevant than ever, too.

That's because it looks at the SDGs in the context of the global institutions that emerged from the ashes of World War II, and that Donald Trump, Vladmir Putin, and the Koch Brothers, among a whole bunch of other miscreants, are trying to destroy. We're a big, diverse planet, and we've pushed our living ecosystems to the brink. We need to work globally, together, if we're to fix this mess, and today we look at how we've done that in the past, and how still can in the future.

If you like what you hear, then I encourage you to become a patron at bionic-planet.com or patreon.com/bionicplanet. I am listener supported, and you can support me for as little as $1 per month.

In this wide-ranging discussion, we discuss everything from the outcome of the most recent talks in Katowice to the odd phenomenon of explosive chickens -- as well as how we can quantify the impact that countries and companies have on achieving the SDGs.

Also appearing: Ceris Jones, Theo de Jager, Tonya Rawe, and Jason Funk

We speak with Chris Meyer of the Environmental Defense Fund, Josefina Brana of WWF, Jason Funk of Carbon 180, Peter Graham of Climate Advisors, and David Burns of the National Wildlife Federation.

"It doesn't make sense," he says. "Oil palm evolved here. It's in our food; it's in our medicine; but we built an economy on cocoa with little attention to oil palm."

Oil palm is the tree that gives us palm oil, and the people of Western and Central Africa have been cultivating it for millennia – harvesting and processing the fruit for vitamin-rich oil, used in food and soap, tapping the trunks for palm wine that is distilled into medicinal alcohol, and using the biomass for green power generation. Over the past half-century, the rest of the world has discovered palm oil, too, and today it's a $60 billion-per-year market that provides material for everything from fuels to food to face paint.

But that money isn't flowing into Western and Central Africa.

Instead, thanks to a fluke of history, it's flowing into Indonesia and Malaysia, which produce more than 80 percent of the world's palm oil, while the dominant cash crop in palm oil's birthplace, is cacao – a tree that evolved thousands of miles away, in the Amazon forest, where the Incas used it to make cocoa.

It's all part of an inadvertent crop swap that began when a Ghanaian agronomist named Tetteh Quarshie brought cacao beans home with him in the 19th Century, just as Dutch and British traders were bringing African palm trees to South East Asia and migrants from Spain, Portugal, and Japan were bringing Ethiopian coffee and Asian soy to the Amazon. Today, 66 percent of the world's cocoa comes from Ghana and Côte d'Ivoire, while Southeast Asia dominates in palm oil, and the Amazon region produces massive amounts of soy and beef.

These lucrative crops have been a double-edged sword, bringing economic wealth to some, economic devastation to others, and environmental degradation to all. Indonesia, for example, lost more than 10 million hectares of forest in just the past 30 years as oil palm plantations spread, becoming the world's fifth-largest (and sometimes third-largest) emitter of greenhouse gasses, and Côte d'Ivoire has lost 80 percent of its forest in roughly the same period to cacao.

Now Indonesian and Malaysian palm oil companies are expanding into Africa, and many environmentalists are worried that could accelerate deforestation if natural vegetation is cleared to plant oil palm.

Avaala, however, says it doesn't have to be that way.

Not the European country, but the indigenous village in the district of Tahuamanu, in the Peruvian state of Madre de Dios, at the western edge of the Amazon forest. He's part of the Yine people, who are scattered from here all the way to Cusco, the capital of the old Incan empire, about 500 kilometers to the southwest. The village gets its name from the alleged homeland of a rubber trader named Justo Bezada, who began working with the people of Belgium – or "Bélgica" in Spanish – in the early 1900s.

Rubber tapping suited them, says López, because it provided a way to earn cash income for schools, food, and health care without destroying the forest.

"Back in the day, we'd roll it into a big ball, which traders would take on a plane to Lima," he says. "But that business started slowing down in the 1970s, and we've been struggling ever since."

As the rubber trade dried up, the people of Bélgica grudgingly turned to logging – sparingly at first, but more and more as roads came, bringing logging trucks and loggers seeking lucrative cedar and mahogany.

In 2002, the people of Bélgica won demarcation of their territory, and with it the legal right to earn income from its products. They divided the territory into zones for commercial activities like rubber tapping and ecotourism, as well as pure conservation areas for traditional hunting and fishing. But logging was something they struggled with – morally and logistically.

"We didn't have any capacity to do the extraction right," says Lopez. "So at first we operated in the black market – basically just letting loggers into the territory and getting paid for it – but the local authorities came to us and said, 'You're not doing this right.' And that's when we learned about certification."

Specifically, certification under the Forest Stewardship Council, or FSC. You know those little labels you see on cabinets and tables and on boxes of paper?

Environmental NGOs like WWF created the Forest Stewardship Council in 1993, together with some forward-thinking timber companies, after the 1992 Earth Summit in Rio de Janeiro failed to deliver a real global compact. The idea was to create some sort of standard for sustainably-harvested timber to at least give the good guys a boost.

It's based on ten principles that stakeholders agreed would make it possible to extract valuable trees without destroying the forest, as well as auditing procedures to make sure the practices were being followed, and then labeling, so consumers would know the difference – and, hopefully pay extra for the good stuff.

At this was happening, indigenous people all across the Amazon were creating so-called Life Plans, or Planes de Vida, which are something like indigenous constitutions.

"The Life Plan is a document, or an exercise, that sets out our vision of where we want to go and helps us understand how to get there," says Lopez. "FSC certification became one of the pillars of our Life Plan, because it was a way that we could improve productivity while saving the forest. We also included rubber tapping and conservation."

It helps that Bélgica is located in the district of Tahuamanu, which is something of a sustainability success story, thanks in part to the Cardozo family. Three brothers and a sister, their parents settled here in the 1950s and become major landowners and political leaders, as well as proponents of sustainable development.

Alfonso Cardozo is the mayor of Iñapari, the district capital, and he lobbied to prioritize granting of concessions for groups that embrace FSC certification.

It was he and his brother, Abraham, who persuaded the people of Bélgica to join FSC, and it was one of their companies that helped the Bélgicans create and execute the sustainable logging plan needed to earn FSC certification. That meant meeting the FSC's ten principles – ranging from hiring comuneros, or members of the community, to meeting ever-evolving standards for good land management and equitable community relations.

Lopez, however, says the Cardozos charged too much for their services, so the Bélgica ruling council switched to a second company, and then a third. Today, says Lopez, the people of Bélgica get 80 percent of the income on timber sold from the territory, and the current partner, a company called MADERYJA, has never missed a payment or been late.

Seventy percent of Peru's certified concessions are located in Tahuamanu, and the neighboring concession of Maderacre, in which the Cardozos also held an interest, is also FSC-certified – and more accessible by jeep than Bélgica's.

It spreads out over 220,000 hectares, divided into 20 plots of 11,000 hectares each, and the company works just one plot per year, so there are 20 years between harvests. The concession was cobbled together by a businessman named Erasmo Wong, who made a fortune building up Peru's largest chain of supermarkets before selling the company and devoting his life to philanthropy and sustainable agriculture.

Environmental NGO WWF has been working with Maderacre to monitor the impact of its operations on wildlife, and Josefina Braña, who runs WWF's Forest and Climate Program, says the early indications are promising.

"The jaguar population is thriving, and we've seen monkeys, tapirs, birds, agouti, ant-eaters, and sloths," she says. "Biodiversity is thriving because of the reduced-impact logging they use."

The company uses drones to first identify valuable trees, then it sends out teams to survey the area from the ground.

"We use drones to identify the trees that are tall and thick enough to chop," says Fermin Zapana Pilco, who oversees all extractive activities in the concession. "Then we map out routes to them, and finally we send out teams to see if the tree we want to chop will hurt other trees when it falls."

The trees and patches of forest are separated into different categories: some are classified as high-conservation value (HCV), which is an official designation developed by the Forest Stewardship Council in 1999, meaning they're not to be destroyed.

"Some will also just be immature," says Pilco. "That means they're too small to harvest, so we leave these for when we return to this plot in 20 years."

If there are seedlings or high-conservation trees near a tree they're targeting, they map out a way to cut the tree so it falls where no seedlings or high-conservation trees are, but if that's not possible, they make a note of that and move on to the next tree.

"It costs us about 35 percent more to do FSC certification, as opposed to just doing what the law requires," says Kroll. "But the market doesn't really pay a premium – or, if it does, it's 5 percent at most.

We come to a massive mahogany that's passed all the criteria: it's about 70 years old, two meters in diameter – six and a half meters around, but wider at the base, and 30 meters, or about 10 stories, high. It branches out about 18 meters up, so only the first six stories can be used for wood.

Put another way, it's 40 tons of biomass, which means 20 tons of carbon, which will become 73 tons of carbon dioxide if the tree burns or decays and mixes with oxygen in the air. That's 14-times as much greenhouse gas as the average passenger car emits in a whole year of driving.

About 40 percent of the tree will end up in flooring and furniture, which locks up 30 tons of that carbon dioxide, but what about the other 44 tons? That's almost nine cars' worth.

"Some of it will be used as biofuel for our ovens," says Nelson Kroll, Madeacre's forestry manager. "We use those to dry out the trees, but we're also working on a deal with a local farm, which wants to use it for mulch and compost."

That's good for the climate, because healthy soils absorb carbon, as well as nitrogen and hydrogen, and they reduce levels of carbon dioxide, nitrous oxide, and methane, three powerful greenhouse gasses. A landmark study published in 2016 showed that we can get 37 percent of the way to meeting the Paris Agreement's 2-degree target just by improving the way we manage forests, farms, and fields.

That study, called "Natural Climate Solutions" identified 20 specific pathways do doing that – one of which is sustainable forest management, which is what FSC is all about, and another of which is improving soils. These natural climate solutions deliver more than one-third of the mitigation needed to meet the climate challenge, but they get just 3 percent of dedicated climate finance and 1 percent of climate-related media coverage.

The tree spreads out at the base, like a duck's foot, and the worker injects his saw into the base vertically, straight up and down, building kind of a wall of wood on three sides of the foot, so these 40 tons will fall where he wants them to.

After it lands, workers begin chopping in and marking it with alphanumeric codes to identify the tree according to the forest inventory, the section of the tree, the date it was chopped, and of course the concession.

The concession began marking the trees to meet FSC traceability requirements, but traceability has become a legal requirement, too, because the European Union and the United States have both banned the import of illegally-harvested timber. As a result, exporters are supposed to trace their timber to legally-sanctioned concessions. That doesn't, however, always happen.

A 2014 analysis by Ecosystem Marketplace publisher Forest Trends, for example, dissected tropical deforestation from 2001 through 2012 and found that roughly 49 percent of all agriculture-related tropical deforestation in that period took place illegally, and roughly half of that illegally-harvested timber was exported.

That same year, a global coalition of governments, corporations, NGOs, and Indigenous Peoples' organizations endorsed the New York Declaration on Forests (NYDF), which is a pledge to end forest loss by 2030. The NYDF is broken into ten goals, with #10 being improved forest governance.

Today, a coalition of environmental think tanks called NYDF Assessment Partners, of which Forest Trends is a member, published updated findings on progress towards Goal #10 and found that not much has changed.

Specifically, the report, called "Improving Governance to Protect Forests", finds that law enforcement has improved slightly since 2014, especially on the demand side, and that traceability has also improved, but that average deforestation rates increased 42 percent since the NYDF was signed.

Countries like Peru, which has a sketchy history on this front, are trying to protect exports by improving enforcement – although the effectiveness of that is limited, too, because countries like China don't put much effort into verifying legality of imports.

"There can be no effective global approach without the support and participation of China, the world's largest importer of timber and exporter of forest products," says Kerstin Canby, Director of the Forest Trends Forest Policy, Trade, and Finance Initiative.

"We are, however, seeing some improvement in enforcement of the European Union Timber Regulation," she added. "By mid-2018, for example, EU Member States have implemented 17,735 checks on domestic timber, and they implemented 2,704 checks on imported timber in 2017, while more than 992 penalties have been assessed, and 21 cases went to court."

If every forestry concession on the planet worked the way these two do, we'd have a fighting chance of meeting the climate challenge, but the district of Tahuamanu is an outlier, with a government willing to promote sustainable forestry and a citizenry willing to embrace it.

In this episode, we speak with the Reverend Dr. Gerald Durley, who says climate change and civil rights are inexorably intertwined, and not just because the destruction of our living ecosystems is robbing us of our right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Born in Kansas and raised in California, Rev Durley finished high-school in Oregon and then marched with Martin Luther King Jr while earning his first of may academic degrees -- this one in psychology at Tennessee State. While there, Bobby Kennedy noticed him and persuaded Durley to join the Peace Corp, which he did. That brought him to Nigeria, then to Switzerland before coming home to the United States and becoming a central figure in Atlanta's Civil Rights scene.

He says we can tap the same forces that galvanized the Civil Rights movement to fix the climate mess, but only if we recognize its inherently moral nature.

In this episode, we speak with the Reverend Dr. Gerald Durley, who says climate change and civil rights are inexorably intertwined, and not just because the destruction of our living ecosystems is robbing us of our right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Born in Kansas and raised in California, Rev Durley finished high-school in Oregon and then marched with Martin Luther King Jr while earning his first of may academic degrees -- this one in psychology at Tennessee State. While there, Bobby Kennedy noticed him and persuaded Durley to join the Peace Corp, which he did. That brought him to Nigeria, then to Switzerland before coming home to the United States and becoming a central figure in Atlanta's Civil Rights scene.

He says we can tap the same forces that galvanized the Civil Rights movement to fix the climate mess, but only if we recognize its inherently moral nature.

They picked that number because 2 degrees Celsius is the point at which climate models start going haywire, but they also asked the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, or IPCC, to review all of the available research and tell us what we'd have to do to keep that rise below 1.5 degrees Celsius, or 2.7 degrees Fahrenheit, which is the point at which feedback loops like melting tundras and increased water vapor make the 2-degree increase all but inevitable.

Scientists from around the world spent the last two years reviewing over 6,000 scientific papers and mapping out different pathways to the 1.5-degree target -- from paths that focus primarily on reducing energy demand to those that focus primarily on expanding carbon sinks that pull greenhouse gasses out of the atmosphere.

One of those carbon sinks is the one that I cover on Bionic Planet -- namely, natural climate solutions that work by improving the way we manage our forests, farms and fields.

The other is next-generation carbon capture and storage, involving new technologies that either don't yet exist or exist but cost a fortune to deploy.

On Monday, the IPCC released its report, and the upshot is that we can meet the 1.5-degree target by deploying a blend of these strategies, but it basically requires us to overhaul the industrial and agricultural economies.

Simple, right?

Actually, a lot of it is simple, but it's not easy to implement, because our economy puts more value on fast cars and cheap beef than on clean air or a stable climate. But the report does identify a mechanism for getting beyond that, and it's a mechanism we've covered before: namely, making companies pay for the damages their greenhouse gasses cause -- or, as we say colloquially, "putting a price on carbon".

But how much damage does a ton of carbon dioxide cause, and can we put a number on it?

These are the questions an economist named William Nordhaus spent his life addressing, through economic modeling, first on a desktop computer, and then with more and more sophistication.

n Monday, within hours of the IPCC issuing its report, the Royal Bank of Sweden announced that it was awarding the Nobel Prize for Economics to Nordhaus and another economist, Paul Romer, who focused on the economics of investing in education and in our collective future.

To honor Nordhaus, I'm re-posting parts of two early episodes featuring environmental economist Gernot Wagner, who documented Nordhaus's quest to quantify the social cost of carbon in his 2015 book "Climate Shock".

US Environmental Protection Agency boss Scott Pruitt is gone – not because of his environmental malfeasance, but because his $43,000 phone booth, his $100,000 trip to Disneyland, and his attempts to get his wife a lucrative job were too tacky even for an administration built on bling.

His replacement, Andrew Wheeler, is less embarrassing but more dangerous. A coal lobbyist until last year, Wheeler is also a long-time adviser to climate-science denier James Inhofe and a sure bet to continue Pruitt's policies – albeit with more stealth and fewer attention-grabbing abuses of power.

Pruitt's departure comes just one week after Justice Anthony Kennedy announced his own retirement from the US Supreme Court, and those two departures have overshadowed the publication of a document that Pruitt and Army Public Works boss Ricky James dropped on us last Friday – a document that mentions Kennedy 64 times and illustrates as well as anything the underhanded way Pruitt subverts environmental protections: not through argumentation, but through sabotage in the name of regulatory certainty (and just in time for summer break).

It's a document that will show up on the Federal Register any day now, and that you and any member of the public will then have 30 days to comment on, but which you'll only understand if you know a bit of history, and that's by design. It's part of an effort to torpedo a Supreme Court opinion that Kennedy penned in 2006 – an opinion that builds on decades of precedent and practice, and that provides the foundation for the 2015 Waters of the United States (WOTUS) Rule (also known as the "Clean Water Rule"), which sets the ground rules for determining which of the waters of the United States are protected by the Clean Water Act (CWA).

If Wheeler and James can rescind that rule, they'll manage to undermine the popular Clean Water Act without the voting public knowing until it's too late, and last week's document is part of their effort to do just that.

Specifically, it's a supplemental notice to the Trump Administration's year-old proposal to repeal the WOTUS rule and instead "recodify" the mess that predated it in accordance with an opinion written by the late Justice Antonin Scalia – an opinion mostly ignored by courts and practitioners, for reasons we covered in earlier installments of this series.

Scalia, as we saw in part three, believed the CWA should only protect "relatively permanent, standing or flowing bodies of water" – basically, lakes rivers, and streams, but not the wetlands or creeks that feed them, and not waterbodies that only flow intermittently.

The repeal would leave 80 percent of US waterways unprotected by federal authorities, and it's one part of a multi-pronged attack on WOTUS that includes a two-year delay on its implementation and a more insidious order to ignore the local scientists and specialists who review dredging permits and instead "involve the Administrator's Office early on in the process of developing geographic determinations" – a move that Kyla Bennett, director of science policy for Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility (PEER) described as "a crude Clean Water Act coup d'état."

"This latest move by Pruitt is his Plan B as it is becoming increasingly clear that his Clean Water rewrite plan is illegal and will be tossed out in court," she said.

In this, the fifth, final, and long-overdue installment in a five-part series on the Clean Water Rule, we try to offer a clear and simple explanation of the state of WOTUS in the current administration. You can see the first installment here.

More on the Bionic Planet Podcast

The story continues below, but I'll also be editing audio from the interviews I conducted with Shrader and others for this series into episode 32 of the Bionic Planet podcast, which which I hope to have ready over the weekend. You can access Bionic Planet via iTunes, TuneIn, Stitcher, and pretty much anywhere you access podcasts, as well as on this device here:

Timeline

The story continues below, but here is a timeline to help you keep key dates in order:

• June 19, 2006: The Supreme Court's Rapanos v United States split decision introduces massive uncertainty over what are and are not protected waters, sparking hundreds of court cases and demands for clarity. Over time, Justice Kennedy's "significant nexus" guidance becomes the rule of the land.
• August 27, 2015: As the Obama Administration prepares to implement the WOTUS Rule, a district court in North Dakota issues a preliminary injunction against the rule until arguments can be heard, essentially freezing the rule in 13 states.
• October 9, 2015: The Sixth Circuit Court issues a nationwide stay, which the Obama Administration begins to fight before the 2016 elections sweep Donald Trump into office.
• February 28, 2017: Donald Trump signs an executive order instructing the EPA to scrap the WOTUS rule and "consider interpreting the term 'navigable waters'…in a manner consistent with the opinion of Justice Antonin Scalia."
• July 27, 2017: Pruitt and acting Army Civil Works boss Douglas Lamont publish their proposal to rescind the 2015 WOTUS Rule – a move that cannot be challenged in court until the rule becomes official.
• January 22, 2018: The Supreme Court rules that challenges to the WOTUS rule must be filed in district courts, forcing the Sixth Circuit Court to vacate its nationwide stay but leaving the North Dakota injunction intact.
• February 6, 2018: With the Sixth Circuit Court's stay vacated, Pruitt and Lamont implement an "applicability date" two years in the future – namely, in February, 2020 – sparking an immediate court challenge.
• March 30, 2018: EPA boss Scott Pruitt directs the agency to ignore local experts and defer instead to his own office when issuing permits.
• June 29, 2018: Pruitt and James issue a supplemental notice to the earlier proposal. The new notice summarizes existing court challenges and argues that their existence introduces more uncertainty than existed before the rule was created.
• July 5, 2018: Scott Pruitt resigns, and former coal lobbyist Andrew Wheeler is named his replacement.

New Notice, Old Arguments

Last week's supplemental notice will soon be listed in the Federal Register, after which the public has 30 days to comment on it. Some organizations, like the American Farm Bureau, a longstanding WOTUS opponent, have welcomed the notice.

"The issuance of this additional notice shows that EPA listened to public comments that showed confusion over what was being proposed and why," they said in a statement. "This supplemental notice will provide a more meaningful opportunity for public comment by clarifying that EPA's proposal is to permanently repeal the 2015 WOTUS rule because that rule was illegal in multiple respects."

Beyond clarifying the position, however, the notice does little to bolster the Administration's claim that the existing rule should be repealed before the agency can "recodify" the mess that the rule was created to fix. After finding that the previous regime was riddled with uncertainty, the agency has a duty to explain why it must repeal the whole rule rather than leaving the rule in place while working to correct whatever problems the agency claims to have found in the rule.

"It's ironic that they claim they're doing this to provide certainty, considering the fact that before 2015 there was a world of very little certainty," says Bethany Davis-Noll, Litigation Director at New York University's Institute for Policy Integrity. "Getting rid of the 2015 rule doesn't reduce regulatory uncertainty; it creates regulatory uncertainty."

In addition, the administration has yet to explain how returning to the confusing regime in place before the 2015 rule complies with the Clean Water Act or how the agency is justified in imposing forgone wetlands benefits on the public.

"Without that explanation, this could be a pretty good lawsuit for anybody who wants to challenge the agency," says Davis-Noll

That is, in fact, a pillar of the suit currently underway to block the delayed implementation of the rule.

The Lack of Analysis or Reason

This series began back in February, when 11 states sued to block the delay in implementing the WOTUS rule, based in part on their contention that the new applicability date was pulled out of thin air while going through the motions of scientific review and public consultation as required by the Administrative Procedures Act.

A key argument is that the Trump Administration ignored the existing cost/benefit analysis and failed to conduct one of its own. Columbia University Assistant Professor Jeffrey Shrader says the Trump Administration not only overstates the costs of implementing the rule, but ignores the benefits of scenic beauty, resilient agricultural systems, and income from mitigation banking.

"They left out any benefit from mitigation or protection of wetlands," says Shrader, who co-wrote an analysis called "Muddying the Waters: How the Trump administration is obscuring the value of wetlands protection from the Clean Water Rule".

Specifically, he points out, the administration simply ignored all wetland benefit studies published between 1986 and 2000 on the premise that their age makes them untrustworthy, but the administration also took its own cost analysis from the same period – despite the fact that more recent studies focused on coastal wetlands show that valuation benefits have increased since then. At the same time, the rise of mitigation banking has both reduced the cost of compliance and created income for people who restore degraded landscapes.

The End of the Restoration Economy?

Proponents of the repeal argue that states will pick up the slack, but current laws evolved because upstream cities and states had little inclination to do that.

"About half of the states have laws on the books that say they cannot implement stricter protection for wetlands than the federal government, and those are the states where the largest at-risk wetlands are located," says David Groves, a former policy advisor to the Obama Administration who now works as Director of Business Development at The Earth Partners, an environmental consultancy.

"The vast majority of economic activity in the mitigation banking industry is in the southeast, which is made up of states with no state-level protections," he adds. "Significantly reducing the scope of the Clean Water Act would present an existential threat to the mitigation banking industry and would destroy a huge amount of value."

The result, he says, would be more taxpayer spending overall, but the costs would flow to downstream states.

"[If you have] an office park, the Building Act says how much energy efficiency you need," he explains. "But if you go to zero energy use, you do much more."

When it comes to fixing the climate mess, he wants everyone to do much more than the law requires, especially his fellow Dutchmen. Indeed, it seems to bother him immensely that here in the Netherlands – the birthplace of wind energy and the headquarters of Greenpeace – the average Dutchman contributes far more to climate change than does the average Swede, Swiss, or Frenchman.

But the Dutch are also notorious penny-pinchers with fervent pride in their local communities and a deep love of games and puzzles – three traits that he thinks will help them drive emissions down dramatically under a nationwide voluntary carbon program called the Green Deal, which he's spearheading along with the Ministry of Environment and several environmental NGOs.

The program has been in the works since mid-2016, and it's slated to go live later this year as a compliment to the European Union Emissions Trading Scheme (EU ETS).

EU ETS is a "compliance" program that legally caps greenhouse-gas emissions on some of Europe's biggest industries – including electricity, paper, and steelmaking. It requires companies in those sectors to either reduce their emissions or buy offsets from projects that do, but it also leaves more than half of all emissions outside the regulatory apparatus.

The Green Deal is a "voluntary" program, he says, and its goal is to dramatically drive down emissions in un-capped sectors like agriculture and automotive, and to do so by encouraging people to develop carbon projects under existing standards like the Verified Carbon Standard, CarbonFix, and the Gold Standard. The project will encourage un-capped companies and individuals to first reduce emissions by reducing energy use and becoming more efficient, but it will couple that by promoting home-grown projects that generate offsets by planting trees or helping farmers reduce their emissions from methane and other greenhouse gasses. It will include a hub so people can see which type of projects are located where, and it will encourage groups to aim for zero net emissions.

"That's the fun," he says. "I can go to zero!"

Like coupon-collectors? I ask.

"Exactly!" he says.

While Cozijnsen publicly emphasizes the "fun" aspect of getting to zero (and becoming, he says, a "carbon hero"), the Green Deal could drive millions into sustainable development projects, and it comes two years after a Dutch court ruled that the government is legally obligated to slash emissions 25 percent before the Paris Climate Agreement comes into effect in 2020.

Cozijnsen, who long represented the Netherlands in global climate talks, sees the Green Deal as a way for the government to meet its pre-2020 obligation, and for companies to prepare for a post-2020 regime, when all sectors will presumably be capped.

Dutch companies and NGOs are already active in both the voluntary and compliance markets. They transact millions of carbon offsets per year, but that money usually goes abroad – to save and restore forests around the world, according to an analysis of European voluntary carbon markets that Ecosystem Marketplace and EcoStar Natual Talents published last year.

Specifically, the report found, companies and NGOs based in the Netherlands transacted 4.4 million carbon offsets in 2015 alone, helping to build wind farms and save or restore forests across nine countries – from Indonesia and Brazil to Turkey and Uganda.

One country missing from the list: the Netherlands itself, and it's not alone. The report also found no active land-based projects in France, Spain, or Switzerland, and only a few in Germany, the UK, and Italy.

The German Ministry of Environment has been supporting efforts to develop voluntary carbon programs domestically, and Cozijnsen says similar efforts are underway across the European Union.